No, the recent upsurge in the popularity of kabbalah couldn't possibly be just another scam to bilk gullible fools out of tons of money. That's why it isn't primarily aimed at celebrities with lots of disposable income and celebrity worshipers with low self-esteem — no, never! That's why they don't sell pieces of fucking string for twenty-six dollars — certainly not! That's why they're not trying to sell you self-help materials based on the superstitions of Jewish mystics living four millennia ago — perish the thought! That's why they aren't charging $20 for their online kabbalah "courses" — wouldn't dream of it!

And that's why beverage corporations like 7 Up would never, ever team up with "Kabbalah Enterprises" to bring you the official energy drink of kabbalah...

...or, then again, maybe they did:

...Kabbalah Energy Drink has hit the beverage biz with the power of Kabbalah behind it. The citrus-flavored drink -- which beats Red Bull nine out of ten times in taste tests -- is infused with Kabbalah water -- the drink of Tinseltown celebrities.

Kabbalah Energy Drink, which is packaged in a sixteen ounce red, white and blue can, contains taurine (which helps regulate heart rate, maintain cell membrane stability and detoxifies the body), B vitamins and caffeine.

You know, folks, taurine is actually a quite helpful amino acid, with various clinical uses. B vitamins are a good thing, sure. And who couldn't use a jolt of their favorite xanthine now and then? But in all honesty, then — what the hell do you need the "Kabbalah water" for?

Perhaps the following might clear up the confusion — our ongoing investigations into mysticism and New Age bullshit led us to a "scoop" on page 24 of the April 18, 2005 issue of People magazine (well, okay, one of our mothers has a subscription, and she showed it to us for a laugh):

In case you can't read it clearly, here are the salient bits:

Try Kabbalah Energy drink, a highly caffeinated, vitamin-infused, rabbi-blessed buzz booster. For only $2, "you get the power of Kabbalah water, incredible energy and a great taste," claims Darin Ezra, the product director of Kabbalah Enterprises.

Right, see, the water, see, it's...you know, blessed by a rabbi. So, you know, it's all mystical and stuff. It's full of caffeinated holiness — God to the last drop!

The best part?

"It has no aftertaste," says Ezra of the drink.

'Cause, you know, that would just make it so not worth two bucks.

I used to attend the Kabbalah Centre, and after volunteering there for almost 2 years I cut my ties with that place for the following reasons:

1. They said I could not advance spiritually until I started giving them money (tithing). Now anyone with half a brain should realize that any spiritual organization that requires its members to give money in order to move up the spiritual ladder is either a cult or a scam... or both.

2. After volunteering for almost 2 years the staff members I worked with started treating me like I was their servant, telling me that all the stuff they were asking me to do (cleaning the facilities, driving staff members to and from the airport, etc... and all for free) would "increase my spiritual bank account" and help me to get the job I desperately needed at the time. Well, it turns out that I didn't get a job until well after I cut my ties with those people.

3. When it became clear to the people there that I was really into coming to the Kabbalah Centre, one of the event organizers told me that I should continue to sign up for their (pretty pricey) classes in addition to volunteering or it would be considered that I did not want to continue my lessons and so would be asked to leave.

4. Now you should really pay attention to this: The central concept of the Kabbalah Centre is what they call "proactivity" and the central book of the Kabbalah Centre is the Zohar. Everybody who attends the Kabbalah Centre knows this. Now no matter who I asked, nobody in the Kabbalah Centre could tell me where proactivity is specifically mentioned in the Zohar. I even emailed Yehuda Berg (Philip Berg's son) and asked him to cite an example from the Zohar that illustrated each step of the "proactive formula." It was a very legitimate question but I got no response, and when I persisted in my emails they were forwarded to someone who said they could not help me. Now you have to ask yourself why nobody in the Kabbalah Centre, even Yehuda Berg, can connect their main idea to their main text. Anybody currently attending the Kabbalah Centre should ask this question, which I will repeat for their benefit: "Cite an example from the Zohar that illustrates each step of the proactive formula."

Many thanks, Anticultist, for giving us a former insider's view of the Kabbalah Centre. While we can do research, and analyze the information we find, nothing beats a true first-hand experience.

Your experience is remarkably similar to that of many escaped Scientologists, or those who manage to break away from any other cult. The constant air-filled promises that depend on your contributions of time, work and money are a dead giveaway.

The modern Kabbalah craze is one of the more egregious offenders, as cults go — they couldn't even be bothered to make something up (à la L. Ron Hubbard), but rather used the material offered up by an even older cult. And as you point out: they couldn't even remain faithful to the material they were basing their cult on. Pathetic.

We've found that those who have actually experienced such cults, and then come to their senses, are in a much better position from which to call out the cults' faults (and crimes). Glad to have you on board, Anticultist!

Another point I'd like to make about what is being taught at the Kabbalah Centre: They say that the bad things that happen in our lives are a result of past misdeeds, recent or otherwise, which come back to us. Well, guess what: Philip Berg suffered a stroke and his grandson is a retard. 'nuff said.

The concept of the ego is what leads us to the idea of proactively. The Ari's writings which are based on the Zohar discuss the 4 levels of the ego and the importance of overcoming the ego.

From here comes the idea of productivity. The proactive formula is a way of shutting down the reactive system (or ego) and allowing us to act in a different way. This is proactive - not reactive.

I hope that is helpful because it is misleading to think that this is a new-age concept, it's very old.

Being told to tithe is a very powerful spiritual tool - 10% of our wages is a good thing to do. Being told where to direct the charity is good if it is advising to a organisation dedicated to making world change. Sometimes people misunderstand advice because they are so against letting go of what is "theirs".

Also Rabbi Berg's grandson is not retarded, his granddaughter has Downes Syndrome - Kabbalah also has a stance on people restricted by their disabilities. And not a negative one. Again this view is from the Kabbalah - a 5000 year old wisdom - not the Kabbalah Centre specifically.

I am not here to promote the Centre or put down the Centre but it's not good to mislead people one way or another.

Christopher,

Since we didn't mention Berg's grandchildren (that was a commenter), we won't respond to that bit, as it couldn't reasonably be directed at us.

You say:

The proactive formula is a way of shutting down the reactive system (or ego) and allowing us to act in a different way. This is proactive - not reactive.

Wait, do you mean to say that the proactive formula (which sounds like a hair product, by the way) actually shuts down the reactive system and that the result is proactive and not reactive? Wow, that's revolutionary! You've said the exact same thing twice using two slightly different wordings! Amazing! Can you chew gum and masturbate simultaneously, too?

You go on to say:

I hope that is helpful because it is misleading to think that this is a new-age concept, it's very old.

Sorry, but no. While the basic foundations behind the Kabbalah Center (i.e., Kabbalah itself) are indeed old, the Center itself has presented nothing but a new age slant on some old ideas. It's nothing particularly novel — in fact, that's basically the definition of every new age movement.

From here, your comment descends into a mix of religion and psychobabble. For the record, you're welcome to live your life by the teachings of any musty old book that strikes your fancy. You're even welcome to polish that book up with a shiny new age veneer. However, please stop stating these beliefs as absolutes. Being told to tithe 10% of our wages to a specific charity is a good thing? Hmm. Perhaps, if you're a brainless moron who's into being told what to do (though in that case, you might as well just tithe the only 10% of your brain that you use). For our part, we prefer to decide what to do with our money, whether for charitable or other purposes. And by the way, that money isn't "ours," it's ours. Try to take it without asking, and you might find out what that means.

In summary, we agree that it isn't good to mislead people. So stop it.

I hope you will let me throw in 2 cents of my own. I have studied with the Kabbalah Centre for two years. My experience has been very positive. Some points I'd like to make:

1) Tithing is not a new concept, it is a very very old teaching from the Torah. It is the idea of sharing what one has...this action of sharing creates opportunity for blessing as well as getting beyond yourself. Why is that one can spend their dough daily at Starbucks or for an Ipod, but if they choose to share with an organization whose vision they share, they are a fanatic? Kabbalah is about becoming a being of sharing, because we believe that is where fulfillment is found and because we believe selfishness is counter-productive to that goal.

2) Proactivity is not a new age concept, though the terminology is contemporary for a a modern generation. It actually incorporates ideas also found in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount...not reacting negatively, turn the other cheek, etc. The teaching, however, is even older and more extensive than that. It has to do with what personal actions create fulfillment rather than leave us reacting all the time to the chaos all around us.

3) It is not at all about "being told what to do" - it is about making choices in a universe of cause and effect and taking responsibility for those choices.

4) Finally, I think the comment by Anti-cultist in which he chose to refer to a child as a "retard" is a clear indicator of the consciousness of that writer. I hope he or she finds compassion as they continue through life.

Thanks

Kabbalah student said:

My experience has been very positive.

Well, rock on with your bad self, K-stud. If you're enjoying yourself, don't let us stop you. However, make sure you've got your facts straight about both Kabbalah and our take on it before you misrepresent either.

Tithing is not a new concept...

...

Proactivity is not a new age concept...

And we suggested that they are "new" concepts...where? As a matter of fact, we specifically stated that "the [Kabblah] Center itself has presented nothing but a new age slant on some old ideas." See, yeah, we know these concepts are nothing new. The Kabbalah craze, like every other load of bullshit out there, is simply recycling the same old concepts with a shiny new coat of paint. None of this crap is new, and the valuable bits (you know, the "be excellent to each other" parts) are all quite obvious to anyone with a fully functioning brain, without needing said ideas to be spoon-fed to them by people who are taking their money.

It is not at all about "being told what to do" - it is about making choices in a universe of cause and effect and taking responsibility for those choices.

Oh, so when they tell you "If you want to be in our gang, you tithe 10% of your money" — they're not telling you what to do? K-stud, deal with it: even if you're inclined to do something on your own, if somebody tells you to do it, you are being told what to do. At that point it's just a matter of perspective. Drop the Kabbalah crap and continue to tithe 10% of your earnings to charity, and we'll be a bit more impressed with your "generosity." As for us, we're generous with our money where it counts — in private, where it's not about "flaunting" our wonderfulness. You dig?

Finally, I think the comment by Anti-cultist in which he chose to refer to a child as a "retard" is a clear indicator of the consciousness of that writer. I hope he or she finds compassion as they continue through life.

We can't speak directly to Anticultist's motivations, but we can certainly say, from experience, that this kind of bullshit wears on a rational person, and can push us to frustration, which is vented in a hurtful — and sometimes inappropriate — tone. In that regard, while we do agree that Anticultist's choice of terminology may have been harsh (though only because the term "retard" has long since lost its strictly clinical meaning), we're not about to trot out any "spiritual" bullshit about "finding compassion" or what-not. Anticultist had something to say, and said it. You're free to interpret it as you decide. You had something to say, and you said it. We're free to interpret it as we decide. Our interpretation? You're probably a fruitloop, but you're entitled to believe what you will; please offer us the same courtesy in return.

Thanks for letting me share my opinion. Your reply, however, is amazing. You chose to nitpick apart a couple of my points while ignoring the substantive portions of my post. When I made the point that tithing was not a new concept, I was responding to Anti-Cultist's post wherein he inferred that tithing was somehow an unsual method of making spiritual progress. Tell me please...what on earth requires more of a person's soul than to voluntarily share a portion of their hard earned money? You and I both know that putting your wallet where your mouth is a powerful tool no matter what the cause. And you are correct, it should not be done to be noticed or to brag about. In fact, Kabbalah says anonymous giving is the highest level of giving.

Then you proceeded to do the most revealing thing you could do...attack me personally ("fruitloop"). I believe that is called an ad hominem tactic, a logical fallacy that is used because it makes one look better, smarter, etc. by belittling the other party.

As for being told what to do, if someone explains the principle of gravity and it's cause and effect, or the effect of putting your finger into an electrical socket, you are not being told what to do, only the cause and effect you are likely to experience. Kabbalah does the same. It is like blueprints or a schematic, explaining the wiring and the circuits. Yes, it is derived from centuries old books, but that doesn't diminish it's applicability. I explained that in a nutshell, Kabbalah happens to teach that if you develop a sharing consciousness, you find fulfillment in life. One experiences what those "musty old books" (your term) referred to as The Light, which merely means joy and fulfillment. If, on the other hand, a person remains a selfish and critical prick, using others, etc. they experience a load of chaos and emptiness in their life. It's simple cause and effect. What a person does with the information is their choice.

I am very tolerant of your views...and I love the free marketplace of ideas on the internet, I just think there needs to be some balance represented by those who have had a positive, life-changing experience in their study of Kabbalah.

There was a book out about 3 years ago on the cynicism of this age...I can't recall the title right off, but it was written not by a religionist, but from a secular viewpoint about how we collectively knock anything and everything these days. Nothing has value...everything is a scandal and a scam. I find that sad, and quite frankly, to be untrue. I have seen dozens of lives positively affected by Kabbalah, as well as by many other spiritual paths.

Let's build bridges not walls!

Sincerely,
A Fruitloop

First off, we'll need to address a common misconception that you seem to be perpetuating:

Then you proceeded to do the most revealing thing you could do...attack me personally ("fruitloop"). I believe that is called an ad hominem tactic, a logical fallacy that is used because it makes one look better, smarter, etc. by belittling the other party.

Nope. Much like Kabbalah, you're welcome to believe that we engaged in an ad hominem argument, but it simply isn't true. Our calling you a fruitloop would have been an ad hominem if we had used that insult to try to "refute" your statements. We did not do so. We argued logically against your statements, and just called you a fruitloop as an aside. That's not an ad hominem argument — it's just an insult. There's a difference.

Of course, it's common practice for folks like you to completely ignore what we wrote, and to respond instead to the insult we lobbed at you. In fact, the rest of your response shows a remarkable lack of acknowledgement of anything that we wrote in our reply. If you just want to talk to yourself, you don't need to come to our site to do it. If, on the other hand, you feel like addressing our actual points, then feel free to do so here. For our part, we'll try to address some of your points, regardless. That's just how we get down.

You chose to nitpick apart a couple of my points while ignoring the substantive portions of my post.

Well, that's where the concept of "perspective" comes in again — the parts that you consider "substantive" are, to us, pretty mindless "woo woo" drivel, and as such, they mean exactly jack squat to us. Frankly, if you think that the parts of your comment that we didn't address specifically are the "substantive" bits, well, you're just reinforcing our opinion of you as a fruitloop.

Tell me please...what on earth requires more of a person's soul than to voluntarily share a portion of their hard earned money?

Talk about ignoring what we wrote. Wow. We weren't talking about voluntarily giving money to a chosen organization. We were talking about being told to give 10% of your wages to a specific group. What on earth requires less of a person's brain than that? As we said above, we prefer to decide what to do with our money. Some goes to charities (or freeware programmers) of our choice, and some doesn't. But please don't extol the virtues of mandatory tithing by calling it voluntary.

As for being told what to do, if someone explains the principle of gravity and it's cause and effect, or the effect of putting your finger into an electrical socket, you are not being told what to do, only the cause and effect you are likely to experience. Kabbalah does the same.

Boy do we hate it when people try to compare their woo woo crap to actual science. No, Kabbalah is nothing like gravity. Gravity is a well-established scientific theory with a metric ton of proof supporting it that governs our actions no matter what we believe. Kabbalah is a load of shit with absolutely no scientific evidence backing it up that some people mistakenly think governs our actions.

In addition, we'd be remiss if we didn't point out that, unsurprisingly, you have completely ignored what we said. We were talking about being told to tithe 10% of your wages to a specific group as opposed to deciding what to do with your money yourself. What the heck does your statement have to do with ours? Yeah, we don't know, either. Are you actually trying to say that, with "scientific certainty," if you tithe 10% of your wages to the Kabbalah Center (or an entity chosen by them), you will be guaranteeing your own happiness? If so, then you are a Grade-A fucking loon. If not, then your comment makes no sense.

I explained that in a nutshell, Kabbalah happens to teach that if you develop a sharing consciousness, you find fulfillment in life. One experiences what those "musty old books" (your term) referred to as The Light, which merely means joy and fulfillment. If, on the other hand, a person remains a selfish and critical prick, using others, etc. they experience a load of chaos and emptiness in their life. It's simple cause and effect.

So...it teaches the Golden Rule? How profound. Then why does anyone need Kabbalah if they can just learn the Golden Rule in kindergarten and skip all the red string bracelets and tithing? Thanks for once again completely ignoring what we said. We'll repeat it, verbatim, for the cheap seats: none of this crap is new, and the valuable bits (you know, the "be excellent to each other" parts) are all quite obvious to anyone with a fully functioning brain, without needing said ideas to be spoon-fed to them by people who are taking their money. Why is our position so hard for you to grasp, and why do you keep misrepresenting it? Apparently Kabbalah doesn't teach reading comprehension.

I am very tolerant of your views...and I love the free marketplace of ideas on the internet...

And we completely respect your right to hold your views. But don't confuse that with respecting the actual views themselves. While we'll gladly fight for your right to practice any silly religion that comes down the pike, including your right to give away as much money as you are inclined to give, that in no way means that we won't call a spade a spade. Kabbalah is bullshit, plain and simple. When you take out all the crap, it's nothing more than the Golden Rule, wrapped in a gooey layer of woo.

...I just think there needs to be some balance represented by those who have had a positive, life-changing experience in their study of Kabbalah.

Say what? You think there needs to be balance on the side of those who have had positive Kabbalah experiences? Christ! Considering the huge push for this kind of shit in Hollywood specifically, and pop culture in general, it's pretty obvious that it's there already. As usual with woo woo crap, the "balance" actually needed is on the rational side of the coin.

Simply put, there is no difference between Kabbalah and any other form of religious happy fun exercises. None. If you pick that one to adhere to, why that one? Why not another? It's arbitrary and pointless, and it displays a severe lack of awareness that you attribute your positive experiences to a silly belief system with no supporting evidence at all. Just be a good person, live a good life, and take credit for it yourself. Don't fall into the ridiculous trap of "owing" everything to a bunch of silly rules with no concrete foundation.

Look, if we've already figured all this stuff out, and you've figured this stuff out — the obvious stuff, the good stuff — and we've done it without Kabbalah...doesn't that suggest that maybe, just maybe, you could've done it without the Kabbalah stuff too?

That, buddy, is why we suspect you are a fruitloop. Don't worry, you're not alone — we consider lots of people fruitloops. That's not anywhere near the "nastiest" barb in our repertoire. Honestly, read any of our other rants on "woo" and you'll likely see that. We bear no malice towards you, we just think you're not exactly running on all cylinders.

Hey guys, your suave and semi-abusive way with words does not impress me in the least. You may sound hip and all that, but it doesn't cut it. Talk about completely ignoring and dismissing the other viewpoint...you take the cake. You are the one who insists that you KNOW what Kabbalah is and what it teaches. And I have explained, you apparently don't know jack about it. For instance, you continue to insist that Kabbalah students are told to hand over 10 percent to the centre. This simply is not the case. And restating it, as you keep doing, does not make it any more true. Students may give to any organization or charity as they freely choose. You implied that I said that tithing guarnatees happiness. What it does is create an opening so that fulfillment or Light can enter a person's life. When we hoard, we actually block that flow.

You also try to dismiss Kabbalah as simplistic. It is actually anything but, but this is not the forum to get into the deep and profound...as I expressed, I was presenting it in a nutshell for this venue.

Now I think that by your repeated use of the derogatory (and very technical term) "woo woo", you are referring to anything you don't happen to understand or agree with. Right? Or perhaps anything which falls into that area of life experience that is beyond the five senses and the materialistic world we inhabit. If you feel that is all there is, that's fine by me. Kabbalah says there can be no coercion in spirituality and that is one of the tenets that drew me to it. But just as one's body needs food and water, one's soul needs sustenance as well.

I will also point out that attacking my reading comprehension level is another ad hominem attack. Because even when used as an "aside" as you said, it still attempts to shift the writer towards taking offense or a reader to think disparagingly of the writer. Thus bypassing whether your actual refutation holds any water. (note: You are not dealing with a high school drop out here dude). And I really am not offended....I have your modus operandi down now and that's cool.

Anyway, debate can be fun. Actually, your barbs have made me laugh and that's a good thing. Obviously we are both invested in our respective viewpoints. But I challenge you to consider this idea genuinely: engaging in blatant cynicism and degrading the faith of others really does have a payoff doesn't it? In Kabbalah, it's called a short circuit...where one connects to the immediate thrill or rush, soon followed by a crash or sense of emptiness. When we finally get tired of that game, we have the opportunity to raise our consciousness higher (woo woo style) to a place where we connect to others through respect and human dignity.

Shalom!

Okay, now you're just fucking annoying.

Hey guys, your suave and semi-abusive way with words does not impress me in the least.

Well then — good thing that we have no fucking interest in impressing an asshat like you. If we wanted to impress you, it appears that all we would have to do is spout some woo woo language and capitalize the initial letter of "Light." Thanks, but no fucking thanks.

You are the one who insists that you KNOW what Kabbalah is and what it teaches. And I have explained, you apparently don't know jack about it. For instance, you continue to insist that Kabbalah students are told to hand over 10 percent to the centre.

And you wonder why we make disparaging remarks about your fucking reading comprehension? Where exactly did we say that the mandatory tithing had to be paid to the Kabbalah Center? Please, enlighten us. Oh, wait — we didn't say that at all. Our problem here is your fucking assumption that mandatory tithing of 10% of one's wages is the fucking yellow brick road to happiness. You have yet to clarify how you "know" this, using any sort of evidentiary basis. Some people may like being told what to do with their money (and their lives), but others (like us) do not. Can we be any more fucking clear?

You implied that I said that tithing guarnatees happiness.

Once again, your reading comprehension is incredibly poor. We didn't imply anything, we asked what the fuck your statement was supposed to mean, and we mentioned that, if you were actually addressing our point, and if your metaphor was to be taken seriously, then you were in fact saying that mandatory tithing was a sure-fire road to happiness, just like gravity is a sure-fire way to stick to the earth. We also asked you if that was what you were saying, and said that if you were saying that, then you were a Grade-A loon. Go back and read it again — maybe you'll get it this time. We rather doubt it, but then we've lost all confidence in you.

Now I think that by your repeated use of the derogatory (and very technical term) "woo woo", you are referring to anything you don't happen to understand or agree with. Right?

Wrong. So staggeringly wrong it's truly astonishing. We'll spell this out for you, even though your track record leaves us with little hope that you'll understand what we're saying. When we talk about "bullshit," as we commonly refer to it on our site, we're talking about faith-based beliefs. We label beliefs as faith-based when they have no evidentiary (or fact-based) basis. It has nothing to do with whether we understand or agree with the intricate details of these beliefs — it is an empirical distinction. In point of fact, we understand a lot about many faith-based belief systems, including Kabbalah (hell, we could give you step-by-step instructions on creating a traditional Jewish golem, not that we think it would actually work. Oh, you don't believe in golems? Gee, picking and choosing again, there's a shock).

Now, when we talk about "woo" or "woo woo," we are either using it as a synonym for "bullshit" and hence faith-based beliefs, or we are talking specifically about the fluffy, silly, meaningless verbiage that often accompanies those beliefs; you can tell which (if you bone up on your reading comprehension) from context. Here's a perfect example of woo woo, straight from your piehole:

What it does is create an opening so that fulfillment or Light can enter a person's life. When we hoard, we actually block that flow.

What the fuck does that mean? Seriously — what exactly is "Light" in your definition? In the real world, light is electromagnetic particle-waves, photons being emitted from bodies or reflecting off surfaces at specific frequencies — you know, the shit that illuminates our surroundings and lets us physically see. You seem to have some other, more mystical definition of light that involves fulfillment and capitalization. That, in a fucking nutshell, is woo woo, and like most purveyors of bullshit, you are fucking full of it.

You also try to dismiss Kabbalah as simplistic. It is actually anything but...

No, we did not do any such thing (that's just poor reading comprehension on your part, again). We never implied that Kabbalah is simplistic at all. What we said was that, if you boil away all the bullshit and woo woo (both now defined above for ease of reference), what you end up with is quite simple. Hell, there are lots of bullshit belief systems that are wrapped in incredibly complex layers of crap — yet that sure as shit doesn't make them true.

I will also point out that attacking my reading comprehension level is another ad hominem attack. Because even when used as an "aside" as you said, it still attempts to shift the writer towards taking offense or a reader to think disparagingly of the writer. Thus bypassing whether your actual refutation holds any water.

This is the last fucking time we're going to correct you on this. Go find out what a fucking ad hominem actually is before you open your piehole and show off your ignorance. It's not about insults; it's not a "distraction" technique; it is, pure and simple, using a (real or surmised) negative personal characteristic to devalue your opponent's argument. We already devalued your arguments, using reason and simple, connect-the-dots logic. Our insults were just that — insults, wholly separate from our arguments. In addition, our comments about your reading comprehension weren't even simple insults — they were observations based on your demonstrated behavior. Here are some examples, made very simple in deference to you:

Let's say that we happen to know that you are four feet tall. If we then say that you are short, is that an insult? No, it's an observation based on our knowledge of your diminutive height. That's exactly what we were doing when we referred to your poor reading comprehension skills. Now, if, in response to your comment, we had replied with "Well, you're short, and short people are dumb, so you're wrong!" then we would have been guilty of using an ad hominem argument. See the difference? We fucking hope so, because if you toss this false accusation on our table once more, any further comments from you will be relegated to the Urinal where utterly moronic comments go to die.

(note: You are not dealing with a high school drop out here dude).

This is an argument from authority, albeit a remarkably poor one. We know our share of high school dropouts that are quite intelligent (and wouldn't take so kindly to your subtle insult to them), and we know plenty of people with advanced degrees that are blathering morons (in one or more aspects of their lives). So your statement means jack shit to us...dude.

But I challenge you to consider this idea genuinely: engaging in blatant cynicism and degrading the faith of others really does have a payoff doesn't it? In Kabbalah, it's called a short circuit...where one connects to the immediate thrill or rush, soon followed by a crash or sense of emptiness. When we finally get tired of that game, we have the opportunity to raise our consciousness higher (woo woo style) to a place where we connect to others through respect and human dignity.

Boy, are we fucking sick of woo woo asshats telling us how miserable we really are. In point of fact, we are very happy people. Contrary to what so many people in this world believe, faith-based beliefs are not necessary for happiness, and they don't in any way universally bestow happiness on their believers. If self-delusion makes you happy, then rock the fuck on. But don't for a moment assume that the same self-delusion will make us happy. As unfulfilling as you might find it, we prefer reality.

Anyway, debate can be fun. Actually, your barbs have made me laugh and that's a good thing. Obviously we are both invested in our respective viewpoints.

Hey, let us spell out our viewpoint, shall we? In our lives, we choose to eschew all purely faith-based beliefs. We treat them all equally since they all have zero evidence to back them up. So, to us, Kabbalah equals Christianity equals Hinduism equals homeopathy equals Bigfoot, ad infinitum. We draw a very logical and consistent line. So where exactly do you draw your line...and why? We can only assume that you don't believe in every faith-based belief out there (as long as we're giving you the benefit of the doubt for not being a complete cabbage-brain) — so why do you choose some and not others? Perhaps when you understand why you don't embrace all of the other faith-based systems, you'll also understand why we don't embrace yours.

If you have nothing of any value to say (and all signs seem to indicate that you don't), then please go away. Despite your valiant attempt to introduce a term like ad hominem into your drivel, this hasn't been a debate; it's been like talking to a child. And after a while, talking to a child can be tiring.

Once again, you are full of insults (got anything else in that cultural elitist bag of yours?), absolutely incapable of understanding another's viewpoint differing from your own. As invited, I will now get lost...because as you indicated, this is pointless and I am not being as Proactive in the "supposed" dialogue as I would like to be. You may believe anything you would like....as I said, fine by me. My posts have never been intended to change your mind, only to point out a different perspective based on actual study of the subject. Too bad that your views are too intolerant and cynical to permit others the same liberty.

As for ad hominem, anyone reading this thread will be able to see clearly that your refutations to my posts are built on a foundation of personal attack, one after another. I have lost count of the insults. I also will posit that your last post was so rabid because I touched a sensitive button.

Thanks for letting me express my views.

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out — 'cause we don't want ass marks on our door. Just to wrap up our "dialogue," we feel we should point out that you have not responded to a single one of the arguments we have made. Not one. We've even asked you specific questions, and not only have you failed to answer them, you've apparently completely ignored the fact that these questions exist. This is why we have been making disparaging remarks about your reading comprehension and comparing our exchange to talking with a child. It hasn't been a dialogue — it's been us making arguments, and you ignoring them and spouting "woo woo" fluff back at us. Don't worry, though, that's a typical exchange between rational people and purveyors of bullshit.

We can only assume that the reason you have failed to address a single point we have made is because you have no answer for logical arguments. We could be wrong, but since you won't or can't answer any of our questions or respond to any of our arguments, we'll never know. And frankly, we don't give a fuck any more. We're just glad to see you go.

...you are...absolutely incapable of understanding another's viewpoint differing from your own.

No, we understand your viewpoint perfectly well, it's just a load of bullshit. We're not sure how well you understand your own viewpoint, given that you haven't been able to offer any answers or statements that would support it.

My posts have never been intended to change your mind, only to point out a different perspective based on actual study of the subject. Too bad that your views are too intolerant and cynical to permit others the same liberty.

No, asshole. Your views are not based on "actual study" of anything. They are based on your biased "true believer" mentality, and not much else. Our views actually are based on studying the claims and evidence of various belief systems; which is why, as rational folks, we have come to the conclusion that bullshit like yours is bullshit. But people like you are usually too blinded by what you want to believe to see through all the bullshit and woo. And what you refer to as intolerance and cynicism is, in fact, a willingness to embrace reality. As we said, you are free to live in your own la-la land (as many children we know like to do to pass the time), but we'd rather inhabit the real world. Finally, as we've clearly said many times, we would gladly fight for your right to believe in your asinine religion. We just don't respect the religion itself, nor should there be any demand that we do. How much more clear can we be?

As for ad hominem, anyone reading this thread will be able to see clearly that your refutations to my posts are built on a foundation of personal attack, one after another.

Fuck, you're dense. Yes, any intelligent reader will be able to recognize that our insults are insults and that our arguments utilize logic and reason. We aren't surprised that you are unable to recognize logic and reason — they don't seem to play a very prominent role in your life. Insults, on the the hand, you are probably used to hearing.

I also will posit that your last post was so rabid because I touched a sensitive button.

Once again, you are wrong. You got such a "rabid" response because, as we said, you are now annoying the fuck out of us. You know, after the tenth time you've explained a really simple point to a five year old, and yet again, they persist in ignoring what you've said, and again insist that they are right despite the clear evidence to the contrary, you finally tell the kid to shut the hell up and play with his toys. Much like that, we were able to put up with your crap for a little while, but your ignorance and your shit-for-brains resistance to logic and reason eventually irritated the fuck out of us. And yet again, if you bothered to read what we wrote, you would have known this.

Given your incredible thickheadedness, any comments you make from here on will go directly to the Urinal.

[As promised, Kabbalah student's comments will now be relocated to the Urinal, since he has shown his inability to engage in an intelligent dialogue. You can find his comment there, in full.]

Kabbalah center in New York is robbing someone very dear to me.

I would like to talk to someone who is an ex-member of this horrible cult. Please help!

Hey, guys: Ya see what I mean?!

Anyway, I'd like to ask you to put me in touch with "Rachel." I think I might be able to help out.

Sure thing. I'll send an e-mail copying both of you so you can hook up offline. Good luck.

And now, to drive the point home...

The following is a quote from Jeanne Mills, a defector from Jim Jones' Peoples temple. She was murdered a year subsequent to the Nov. 18, 1978 Jonestown suicides/murders of 911 children, woman and men. She wrote this shortly before being murdered. Listen to what she is telling the world:

"When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you have ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you have ever met, and then you learn the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true! Don't give up your education, your hopes and ambitions to follow a rainbow."

And I would say to that: When you encounter people who claim they know better than you what path you should seek, who insist that you are delusional and misled when you feel inspired and growing, who insist that a spiritual path is always too good to be true, and that cyncism and distrust is the ONLY way to go, realize you have met a cultic mentality in them as well.

"... you have met a cultic mentality in them AS WELL?" Buddy, do you realize what you've just admitted about whatever you're involved in? Wait a minute... you're Sniffles, aren't you? LMAO!

I'm not involved in anything FYI...I just know coercive and cultic persona when I see it, no matter the source. The "as well" in my post refers to tactics of anticultists as being synonymous or at least very similar to those of the "cults".

And I have no idea who Sniffles is.

If you're not involved in anything, then why are you here? To tell people who speak out against cults that they're part of a cult too?

Cults have charismatic leaders who are generally wealthy, powerful, and assign mystical power to themselves, so if you think that people speaking against cults also think the same way as cult members, then please identify a charismatic leader with wealth, power and self-assigned mystical status who skeptics look up to and obey unquestioningly. You can't. Know why? Because skeptics ask questions, and cultists don't (that whole mystical power crap won't work with them either). And that is enough of a difference to establish that cultic personalities (which are characterized by unquestioning loyalty to a charismatic leader) are nowhere near identical to skeptics (who ask too many questions to follow anyone blindly).

You additionally haven't noticed that nothing I've said on this page can be considered coercion, so let's keep the false accusations to a minimum, okay? Let's play fair.

"Play Fair"??? Now after reviewing your site, that is the single most amusing statement I have heard you make. Let's see, you totally and without exception dismiss the experiences of anyone who may have found value in what you label as "cults", which I might add is a highly subjective and relative term to begin with. Is Catholicism a cult for example? Most would say no. I would say yes under the definition you have espoused (even academic scholars disagree as to what constitutes a "cult"). You outright deny the existence of anything mystical as though it were indisputed fact and so of course anyone who may believe otherwise is at a clear disadvantage from the getgo. That is hardly "fair" debate.

To be clear as to my position, however, I would never disagree with you that organized religious groups and their leaders have done a lot of harm over the centuries as well as today, and that there have been many charlatans along the way. But I also dismiss the notion that the alternative is atheism or humanism. It's just not so black and white is all I am saying. People need to take responsibility for their own spiritual development and not blindly follow appointed leaders. That being said, there is also tremendous value in having a teacher/student relationshiop and being a part of a group, which actually provides a forum for spiritual progress to occur. Sitting back and throwing stones, and embracing and spreading any negative press about a group as being gospel truth is not a path to that goal.

Now maybe you are not "coercive" in one sense, but in another I am not so sure. Don't you propose that your view is the ONLY true way of looking at it? And don't you ridicule and annoint with disdain anyone who dares to disagree with you?

Mirrors are incredible tools for self examination.

By playing fair I mean to ask you not to imply that I had been coercive, which I never was. If we can reach that understanding then we've made some progress.

Moreover, if I deny that these cult leaders have mystical powers (that's what I mean by "mystical powers crap"), then I'm free to express my opinion to that effect. I never actually said that it was an undisputed fact that anything mystical exists. If it does, great! But does Berg have mystical powers? Hell no, and that's my opinion, which I am free to state and have a right to state.

As a former member I have shared my experiences at this site, and as it turns out, my experiences were similar to those who were ex-members of other cults. Now if experiences recounted by ex-members of different cults are similar, then that says something significant and non-subjective. And based on my past experiences, that makes my opinion on the Kabbalah Centre an informed one.

I do agree with you that it's not always so black and white as far as religion is concnerned. But the fact remains that this discussion is based on the statement that the Kabbalah Centre spews big chunky assnuggets. This discussion is not about cults in general. Just the Kabbalah Centre, which projects fecal clusters from its oral aperture at high rates of speed and frequency. I would like to keep this discussion on track, but rest assured that I recognize and agree with your viewpoint that it's not always black or white.

I also want to make it clear that this is not my site. Its creators and I simply happen to agree on one thing... that the Kabbalah Center orally launches fecal cluster projectiles at 5000 RPM.

Reviewing what I have written on this page will additionally show that NEVER have I proposed that my view is the only way of looking at it. I'm here to tell people about my experiences, not to declare myself an irreproachable authority - now please don't establish my stance for me again. And finally, do notice that I've attempted to establish some common ground between our viewpoints, rather than ridiculing you and anointing you with disdain for daring to disagree with me.

Anticultist, I do apologize...although my replies to your posts stand, I misread and mistakenly thought that the most recent ones were from Two Percent Company, the moderator/owner of the site. That is why my last post was generalizing as to the site and would have sounded confusing.

I am sorry you had a negative experience with the Kabbalah Centre. Perhaps in reflection, you may have gained something through the process, and I say that because it is MY opinion that ALL of life's experiences benefit us. I do happen to know of people who study that system and who say it has changed their lives for the better. That too is subjective but cannot be dismissed with a smirk. Are their pockets a bit lighter? Probably. Could they have gained the positive things they claim without it. Perhaps so. But here is my ultimate question: if they become better people (again subjective), more loving and less self absorbed, lose their unwanted addictions, become more patience and tolerant, become more interested in helping others, develop a vision for life, have more motivation to reach goals, and generally smile more, then can we really put a value on that? I don't claim to know the answer and I know that such a statement will likely stir up strong feelings. But we all exchange our money for what we think will make us happy in one way or another. People can spend thousands on a drug habit or a big screen tv and no one cares, but let them donate to a religious organization (which do have costs to cover) and all hell breaks lose. What is that about? I don't begrudge anyone the right to donate to who and what they choose. I do abhor any coercion, however.

Informed decisions are usually good ones. However, the fact that SOME people have a negative reaction to penicllin does not make penicllin bad to the many others who benefit from it.

Thank you. Now in response to your ultimate question, which was "if they become better people (again subjective), more loving and less self absorbed, lose their unwanted addictions... then can we really put a value on that?" I do agree with you that such things are valuable, but I believe that those things can be yours by your own efforts. And even if practicing Kabbalah does have some benefit to it, keep in mind also that there are organizations that teach Kabbalah for free, and probably in a purer form too. As a matter of fact, many spiritual paths (or most of them) whose students claim to have greatly benefited from operate on donations. So if the Kabbalah Center represents such a worthy and noble cause, then how can it be considered a good thing for its founders to grow fat on the money of their followers?

I'd like you to read the following articles:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/4158287.stm

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=9375

Two Sided Coin,

Apology accepted. Oh, hey, wait — you didn't apologize to us, did you? Our bad.

For the record, we aren't trying to coerce anyone to believe (or not believe) in anything, or to give their money (or not give their money) to anyone. We are simply stating the facts, with the intent that people can see said facts and make up their own minds about how they want to act. If, after reading our site, someone feels like entering the convent and giving all of their worldly possessions to the church, that's just fine by us. Our opinion is that, based on the facts, that's a particularly silly decision, but we certainly wouldn't attempt to stop that person from making that move, assuming that he or she isn't someone that we know intimately and care about deeply.

You ask if monetary investment in a religion can be "worth it" if it makes the contributor happy. Well, really — worth what, and to whom? If someone is made happy by something, they themselves can decide if they've spent too much money or time on it, not the rest of us. That's an entirely subjective judgment, and not one that we would even try to assign an empirical answer to. However, the question of whether a given belief is correct or not is an empirical question. So, go ahead and join (for instance) the Catholic Church if doing so makes you happy. But when you profess the divinity of Jesus Christ and the existence of God, heaven, and hell, we justifiably call bullshit. Believe it if you like, but according to all available evidence, it just isn't true.

Also, it's important to note that actions that cause an individual to be happy aren't always "good." If it makes a person happy to join up with Charles Manson and kill people, that's something that we view as "bad." To a much lesser extent, we view self-delusion in the form of religion to be "bad" as well. Again — our opinion. But, as with so many things, we draw a pretty clear and distinct line between what we consider "good" or "bad," as can be surmised from reading the rest of our site, as you have asserted you have done. Where do you draw your line, and why? That always seems to be the sticking point, we've found, with those who want us to "be nice" to bullshit beliefs.

You also state that you think all experiences are beneficial. We disagree, though we kind of see where you're coming from. Being brutally raped and beaten almost to death may make you a tougher person with more zeal for life, but we firmly disagree that those benefits "outweigh" the negative impacts of such an experience (physical and psychological damage, potential venereal disease, possible unwanted pregnancy which could result in an unwanted child, and so forth). Sure, seeing the Kabbalah Center for the purveyors of bullshit that they are might be seen as a "positive" outcome of Anticultist's experience, but overall, that doesn't make the experience good.

You say:

Now maybe you are not "coercive" in one sense, but in another I am not so sure. Don't you propose that your view is the ONLY true way of looking at it? And don't you ridicule and annoint with disdain anyone who dares to disagree with you?

No. We propose that a scientific approach is the only reliable way of assessing claims, fantastic or otherwise, that humans have so far developed. People are free to use the less-reliable method of their choice, but then they shouldn't come here trying to trump science with bullshit. We hope you can see the difference between what you said we do, and what we actually do. And, put simply, we do not ridicule or "anoint with disdain" anyone who disagrees with us. Keep in mind that the people with whom we discuss these issues on our site have come to us and either made assertions or asked questions. We respond based on the message we have received. Not all people who believe in things that we consider silly are met with ridicule, as you'd see if you read through our posts. In addition, in our offline lives, we are friends with plenty of people who hold faith-based beliefs. As hard as it may be for you to fathom, we do not ridicule these people for their beliefs. We don't judge people by that yardstick alone.

Finally, let's be clear about something — we don't care whether you call a given group a religion or a cult. As far as we're concerned, there isn't much difference (and that difference is largely one of public perception), and such a discussion is nothing but an exercise in semantics. We are talking here about faith-based beliefs, and in this case, about faith-based beliefs that cost money. Charging money for bullshit is nothing but an elaborate con, and that's what we are illustrating. If you see the huckster pocket the queen, and you still want to play Three Card Monty — even if it's with a huckster whose legerdemain you haven't observed — we certainly aren't going to try to stop you. We just want to make people aware of what's going on — essentially, we're pointing out the queen in each and every huckster's pocket. Just like you, we believe in informed decisions.

The bottom line here is that the Kabbalah Center sells bullshit, and that's what we call them out for. We aren't trying to coerce anyone, nor have we ever done so, and we aren't trying to limit anyone's right to believe whatever they want to. But mere belief in bullshit doesn't make that bullshit any more true. That, we're sorry to say, is rather black and white.

kabballah IS bullshit

JUST IDIOTS WITH A BOOK trying to brainwash you that youre life ISNT sufficient enough WITHOUT THEIR BOOK

take a look at all the low life losers who study the shit themselves,
they know just how to turn how you feel against you so youll belive that kaballah has all the answers

""I NEVER WAS ANYONE SPECIAL BACK AS A CHILD, OH, I KNOW ,ILL BECOME SMART,AND HAVE KNOLEDGE,BECAUSE THIS BOOK GAVE IT TO ME, AND THEN IL HAVE AN ADVANTAGE IN A CONVERSATION, LIKE I ALLWAYS WISHED I HAD BEFORE""

.....all who follow religion need to question why, because seriously, youre al fucking brainwashed,man created god , you just liek to confuse your ignorance with god,god hates all of you fucking idiots that think you praise him right when you just shit on your god given temple with your DELLUSIONS,

all hail fuckin satan because he is the only thing you idiots reconize as your demise and oo so scared of it, that you gotta , FIGHT WITH ALL YOUR FAKE GOD WILL POWER hahaa

Kabbalah center of New York is a money-making cult. They've ruined my life! I need to reach ex-members of this horrible cult.

I've been out of that scam for 3 years, and although I admit my stupidity for joining them in the first place, I can also say that at least I was also able to reason myself out of there. So if you were once fooled by them, don't let shame keep you from helping other people... in fact, it's people like you and me who are in the best position to help people like Rachel. So speak up for the benefit of those who need you!