Calling all psychics, mediums, clairvoyants, spiritualists, and anyone else who wants a shot at the title: tell the world what happened to the missing girl in Aruba!

Perhaps we should explain. Despite the fact that our Rants on Allison DuBois are now almost three months old, they continue to receive a good number of hits. This is due primarily to the fact that we have been hovering between the second and fourth hit on a Google search for "allison dubois." In general, we are right behind Allison's site — a prospect that brings us no end of joy.

At any rate, we receive a wide range of comments from a wide range of people, and we make it our practice to respond, no matter how silly or outrageous the comment is. We recently received a brief comment from Joan Durhkoff in reference to Natalee Holloway, who has gone missing in Aruba:

HELP NATALAE HOLLOWAY'S PARENTS FIND HER.

We'd like to thank Joan for bringing this up. In case you don't know (or in case you are reading this long after the summer of 2005), teenager Natalee Holloway has been missing in Aruba for a few weeks now. At this point, the authorities suspect that she's dead, and have detained several people on suspicion of murder and kidnapping (some of the detainees have since been released).

Please understand that we are not attempting to make light of this situation — we sympathize with Natalee's family and would never try to take advantage of this terrible circumstance. However, we are aware that the alleged "magical superpower people" (that'd be the psychics and mediums and others of that type) have no such compunctions, and are quite happy to prey on the emotions of people like Betty Holloway Twitty — hence our challenge.

We'll assume that Joan's imperative isn't directed toward us since we never claimed to be able to help the professional investigators do their jobs. Nor do we think we could in this case, particularly with little (read: no) training in police work and, of course, not being anywhere near Aruba at the moment.

If this imperative is addressed to Allison...we agree wholeheartedly! Allison, and all you other "mediums" and "psychics" out there, here's your chance to really shine! Help us out — poor Natalee Holloway is missing, and you claim to be good at this stuff. So: what happened? Is Natalee alive or dead? If dead, how did she die? Where will she be found? Are those currently detained actually responsible for the crime? Give us some details, and we'll record them right here. Then, when the facts are known, everyone will be able to point to this site — a skeptical site — as proof of the efficacy of supernatural abilities. Boy, that'll show us! So go ahead and comment about what happened right here.

Natalee's mother has already consulted a psychic — and that apparently didn't pan out. We can guess that various other "psychics" and "mediums" have already chimed in on this case; or, if they haven't, they soon will. We can just hear them now: "She'll be found near water." Hey, pretty good guess, considering that she went missing on a fucking island. So none of that vague nonsense — we're looking for details.

So we're calling all psychics, mediums, clairvoyants, spiritualists, and anyone else who wants a crack. Fill in the details of Natalee Holloway's disappearance right here, and we'll see how you do. Note that we'll be checking answers against release dates of established facts, so if you give us today descriptions of the five detainees, we won't be impressed. Vague nonsense also won't carry you very far, so steer clear of "sensing great pain from her," and crap like that.

Oh, we know: "It doesn't work like that," and "We can't get specific details on demand," and "The spirits mumble sometimes," and "We might contact an evil spirit who tells us lies," and so on and so on. We don't want to hear it. Either you have a useful ability or you have something that's akin to guesswork, so spare us the excuses.

As usual, it's easy for these people to claim to have "helped in active investigations," but it isn't so easy to actually make a useful contribution. We'll see if we're proven wrong.

Bring it on!

I'll rise to the challenge. I'm having a vision right now... about this plea... The spirits say... No psychics will respond, but many will claim to have gotten the right answer after it's over.

Oh wait, I'm not psychic, I'm cynical.

Shawn, please feel free to take part. You have just as much psychic ability as all of the self-proclaimed psychics rolled into one. Besides, your prediction will probably have the highest chance of coming true!

I call upon those that speak from beyond:

http://www.newiq.com/services/webapps/randword.htm

"Signature, Anvil, Camera, Aerosol, Reporter, Pill, Drought, Siren, Pyramid, Alphabet"

Look at those hits! Reporters are definitely involved, and so are signatures, cameras, sirens, and the alphabet! Boy, that anvil sure sounds scary!

If I've learned anything from my wasted youth watching cartoons, it's that you should always be prepared for falling anvils.

Of course, you know the scariest part, Ron — when all the facts of the Natalee Holloway case are known, it'll be a piece of cake to come up with "meaningful" connections between your word list and those facts. Then we're going to have to give you a prize or something for your detailed, accurate predictions!

But Shawn still gets a prize, too, I'll bet.

Ooh! I want to play, too! Here are my random wo..., er, "predictions":

"Window, Motor, Shadow, Toupee, Ring, Crystal, Furniture, Vulture, Plant, Match."

Full of possibilities! And if all else fails, I can always say that I should have consulted my crystal for the real answer.

For good measure, I checked my crystal, and only got one word out of it: Swarovski.

Swarosvski!!! That settles it all. It's a well known fact that swarovski crystals can be repaired when dropped. See.... see... repaired... dropped... I'm sure there is a wealth of meaning there.

Too fun! I called upon the battling Virgo moon and the third star of Aries and got this premonition:

Taxi, Pocket, Magician, Map, Pin, Chord, Piano, Computer, Salt, Boiler.

Wait, as an astrologer, I have to add the words could, may, and might to all my predictions.

Piece o' cake. I predict she'll be found near Aruba, on land or perhaps in the sea, possibly deceased though alive is not totally ruled out. She will not be found in the air, nor in any transitive state between life and death.

Never let it be said THIS psychic doesn't offer definitive, concrete, checkable, falsifiable readings.

Hmmm... Nothing so far from the famous psychics. We started checking their sites to see if they mentioned Natalee, but we weren't able to find anything. Odd, that.

However, we did find the following incredible warning on Sylvia Browne's site:

Fraud Alert!: There is a woman claiming to be "Sylvia Browne from the Montel Williams Show", operating from a toll free telephone number. Sylvia Browne does NOT have a toll free "800" number. The only valid numbers to contact Sylvia Browne are (408) 379-7070 or (425) 255-9042. If you have called this woman and have paid for services, please call Sylvia Browne's office at (408) 379-7070!

Sylvia is warning us about a fraud pretending to be a psychic. Now that's a set of balls. Pot? Kettle? Black?

Wow.

"If you have called this woman and have paid for services, please call Sylvia Browne's office at "

Would have thought she'd have the prescience to stop this sort of thing from happening

Good point, Merlin. She should have "forseen" this with her awe-inspiring powers. Maybe I'd expect a warning like this:

Future Fraud Alert!: There will be a woman claiming to be "Sylvia Browne from the Montel Williams Show", who will operate from a toll free telephone number. Sylvia Browne will NOT have a toll free "800" number. Beware! The spirits have spoken!!

And a "psychic" predicts: http://www.underworldtales.com/aruba.htm

I believe Natalee was murdered.

I am 100% sure that the beach and water was involved

each time I saw Natalee she wore a light swimming suit

What, no anvil?!

Wow, that's some incredibly precise stuff from Marie St. Claire! Let's see:

Normally, I investigate historical cases only. I didn't even know if I could connect to this "new" of a case, but I thought I'd give it a try...

Yeah, we always find it much easier to connect to cases that are older since, you know, a lot of those are resolved already. We connected with the OJ Simpson case earlier today, and determined that he willen haven be acquitted. (Thanks go out to Doctor Dan Streetmentioner for the tricky grammar there.)

I'm very sorry to report that I believe that Natalee Holloway is dead.

Now that's going out on a limb. Let's see — all her stuff is in her hotel, and she didn't show up for her flight home. She was last seen going off alone with some locals, and she's missing on a small island. Are you sure you want to make such a bold prediction, Marie? Maybe she got involved in a twilight volleyball game and just lost track of time.

I heard something then, and I'm not sure how it fits into the case. I heard a male voice say: "Over here," and then, "Turn around." And then, more urgently: "Turn around!" Could it have been the killer speaking to someone else who was helping him hide the body? I don't know, but it's a likely explanation.

We have an alternate explanation for these voices. Perhaps Marie's neighbor was watching Predator really loud and she was just hearing Mac's lines as he removed the scorpion from Carl Weathers' back. But that's just us. Of course, we could answer this definitively if Marie also heard an Austrian-accented voice say "he's using the trees" during her vision.

However, during the connection, I saw Natalee running on the beach as if fleeing someone. ... I sensed that this man she was fleeing was angry at her. Somehow things had gotten out of hand that evening. I sensed that he didn't want her to leave him. He caught up with her and killed her. I believe he either choked or drowned her--maybe a mix of both. I also believe that sex was somehow involved--either they'd had sex that night or he'd raped her.

Wow! Amazing! So she was fleeing from someone who was angry at her, and he was chasing her because he didn't want her to leave? That's such a unique and improbable scenario! And she thinks that something sexual happened that night? That's quite a leap considering that it's been all over the news that Natalee was making out in the backseat of a car with one of the people being held. We stand in awe of these predictions.

We do notice that Marie makes her fatal flaw here, though. She indicates choking or drowning as the means of death, and leaves out bludgeoning. This has several disadvantages. First, in our opinion, bludgeoning is the other most likely cause of death given the likely circumstance (unplanned, drunk, and so forth). Second, as Ron notes, omitting that one leaves no room at all for the anvil to be involved. We're sorry, but that is just nonsense. We clearly made a connection with "anvil" days ago. Sheesh.

Here's the coup de grace: a description of the killer!

I briefly caught a glimpse of a man with a somewhat rough face, (acne perhaps).

Perhaps it was acne? What else might it have been? Stubble? Sand? Pocks? Shadows? Ugly spots? We'd like a little more precision here.

His forehead was broad but the face narrowed to his chin.

Holy shit, has Marie shared this with the authorities?! This is the case-breaker! The guy had a broad forehead, but his face narrowed to his chin! How many people could that possibly describe?! Get the sketch artist on the horn, we've got the killer!

He was a Caucasian with straight brown or dark hair. His eyes were dark. I believe he was young--under 30.

That probably only precludes non-caucasians and blondes. It also seems to sound a lot like one of the people who were detained early on. Odd, that.

I am 100% sure that the beach and water was involved as the visions centered around the water...

Amazing! This crime "involved" the beach and the water! And on an island, no less.

...and each time I saw Natalee she wore a light swimming suit (a symbol?).

A symbol, or perhaps a reference to the oft-seen posters which show Natalee in (gasp!) a blue beach outfit.

Later, Marie connected directly with Natalee, and asked for specifics, but darn those spirits, they never make it easy! She never got the details, and then Natalee hung up the ghost phone. Aw, shucks. So close.

Here's a forum with lots of "psychic" predictions about Natalee Holloway. Oddly, they don't seem to all fit with one another. In some cases, the body is going to be found buried, and in others it will be found in a house. In still others, she isn't dead at all (though there's no indication of where she is).

However, there are a few accounts in which bludgeoning is being predicted as the cause of death. Since this fits with the anvil connection above, I tend to believe these people more.

I also noticed that one person in this forum had used dowsing to anwer some yes/no/maybe questions, so I thought I'd give that a try as well. Since I'm not an accomplished, er, "dowser" I will use an online Magic 8 Ball instead:

Q: Is Natalee dead? A: Signs point to yes
Q: Is Natalee alive? A: Most likely
Q: Do any of those detained know what happened? A: It is certain
Q: Was an anvil involved? A: Very doubtful (awww)
Q: Was Natalee a female? A: You may rely on it
Q: Is Aruba an island? A: Very doubtful
Q: Was the ghost of Jack the Ripper involved? A: You may rely on it
Q: Is Natalee dead? A: Without a doubt
Q: Is my psychic kung fu strong? A: Yes definitely

Other than Aruba not being an island (the, uh, 8 Ball mumbled), I stand by these predictions. Notice how I'm covered whether she's alive or dead! Smart, huh? Also, that whole ghost of Jack the Ripper thing can never be disproven, so I'm safe there. The 8 Ball has spoken!

Of course, chance dictates that some of these forum predictions could turn out to be true, even some of the more specific ones. Then again, some of my 8-Ball predictions could be true as well (my psychic kung fu is strong, after all). It's all playing the odds, luck, and subjective validation.

Unless, of course, I am right in which case I'll start charging $500 for readings!

OK, here we go!
First of all, let me say that I'm not a professional psychic. However, I do have a theory which occured out of the blue, after studying the news breaks on this story for several days.

There are 4 people in custody (fact). Van der Sloot (17), two friends and Mr. Croes. This is way too many people and implies a "conspiracy" between these people.

If you can find the photo of Joran VDS and the two fellows of colour, look at J VDS photo closely. You will see evidence of non-symetry in his features. One eye is smaller than the other - one ear is shaped differently than the other. This indicates the type of neurological damage that is typically found in a great many serial killers who are sociopaths. Profilers look at this. (This does not mean that all people with skewed features are serial killers, but it's not uncommon.) Also mentioned were his two web sites that were taken down after his arrest. Among the pictures that were posted of him partying was, according to people who viewed it, a photo of him with a naked woman wearing a dog collar and leash. Pretty sophisticated for a 17 year old. Indicates an interest in S & M and bondage. This is also very reminescent of Paul Bernardo, who - with his lovely bride Karla Homolka - are the two most notorious Canadian killers of modern times. His arrogance, reported by Natalee's mom, also smacks of the same sociopathic attitude as Bernardo's.

This Canadian case has been back in the news lately because Karla is to be released soon, due to a plea bargain. That was made 12 years ago, when his lawyer found and kept the video tapes showing the both of them abusing their 2 teenage victims before killing them.

Which brings me to the video tapes. Bernardo was working on perfecting his video techniques, not just for his own perverse pleasure, but to sell them as SNUFF FILMS for huge bucks.

There is a huge, dirty, sick clientelle out there for this product. The CIA actually had a Black Ops service that sought rings dedicated to child pornography and snuff films. I heard an ex-CIA guyd that was part of this operation, can't remember his name, interviewed on Coast to Coast AM - he wrote a book about his part in tracking down people globally.

This brings me to the point - I believe these young perps were kidnapping and drugging (or not) young women to make porn and - possibly - snuff films. This is where I think the 26 year old comes in . . . Steve Crows - the DJ - who probably has enough technical experience with audio-visual to actually produce these types of films.

So, I think they may have offered to drive her to her hotel after the bar closed. One small error in judgement on her part. After that car door closed, her fate was sealed.

There have been suggestions that they gave her the date rape drug. This isn't the only way to incapacitate someone. The Bernardo's used a veterinary anesthitic - something like Halicion or halycion or something. You put it on a rag and hold it over the person's nose and they pass out. The Bernardo's used this method - leading to the death of Karla'a sister, their first victim (they were never tried for her death). She died from the chemical - drowned in her own vomit.

This or something very similar may well have happened to Natalee. I think they took her, drugged, to make either a bondage or snuff film. Maybe they only planned to fake snuff (a lot of snuff films are faked - some are not). Anyway, whatever their perversion, they ended up with a dead girl.

Steve Croes, being the senior person among those arrested, would then have assumed responsibility for dumping her body. Apparently, he has his own speed boat. He probably took her to the other side of the island and dumped her in the reputed "shark's den". One blog I read asked, "Wouldn't her clother have washed up on shore?" My response is, "What clothes?"

So, if this theory has any validity at all, there may be video's hidden somewhere - or maybe they dumped or burned those when the heat was turned up by the police. They were certainly given ample time to get rid of all evidence. (The Bernardo videos were eventually found behind a ceiling light fixture in the attic of their home. They were removed and kept secret by Bernardo's lawyer.)

The Aruban police are pathetic. I don't think they have any imagination. Why hasn't the party boat been seized and gone over with a fine tooth comb? It doen't sail on Sunday nights and the suspect Croes has a key access to it. How lame are those cops???

Keep in mind that these people are scum. (Joran Van Der Sloot wanted to be a JUDGE. Remember Ted Bundy? He wanted to be a lawyer. GREAT!!!)

We may never know what happened. In Aruba, apparently, no body - no crime - no trial. These scumbags may all walk. If they do, you can bet you'll eventually hear of Van Der Sloot and Croes again . . . there's no cure for their sickness.

This theory is based on years of trying to understand the criminal mind (re: abnormal psychology). If you're really interested in this topic, try reading "Hunting Humans". I don't remember the author's name, but he developed profiling for the FBI.

Why haven't the FBI published a profile? I'd love to know what they're not telling us.

This investigation is a farce. It's way too slow. They've blundered their way through and the trail has grown cold. They might as well be accomplices . . . they've given these low-life's every opportuniy to wiggle out of this by destroying evidence for days.

This is one of the most incompetent investigations I've ever heard of. I'm absolutely steamed about it.

Footnote: I agree that the media is biased toward pretty, white, middle-class women . . . that sucks! But, it still doesn't mean that we should just turn the page on this one. There's very little media on it in the last while . . . this story is rapidly becoming yesterday's news.

One more gripe - there was a hostage taking in Cambodia at an international school last week. A two-year old Canadian toddler was shot in the head for crying. This story did not appear on any of the U.S. news service websites that I visited. I happened to open the Ottawa Citizen web site the day it happened. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have heard about it. CANADIAN'S are people, too. This story was equally obscene. American's only seem to care about American's. It's a big, scary world.

Thanks for letting me get that out there.

Glad I'm in Arkansas - think I'll stay put!

linda said:

First of all, let me say that I'm not a professional psychic. However, I do have a theory which occured out of the blue, after studying the news breaks on this story for several days.

...and...

This theory is based on years of trying to understand the criminal mind (re: abnormal psychology). If you're really interested in this topic, try reading "Hunting Humans". I don't remember the author's name, but he developed profiling for the FBI.

Based on these statements, I think you're presenting a theory that you came up with via psychology, criminal profiling, and intuition as opposed to anything psychic or supernatural. Am I right in my assessment? If your postulations turn out to be correct to some degree, I'd like to know their origins.

Either way, it is perfectly acceptable here. I'm just curious, really. In brief, criminal profiling can be a valuable tool in law enforcement (as opposed to psychic "assistance"), even though some aspects of it are debated.

The lack of facial symmetry that you mention is interesting. For my part, I haven't seen many pictures of the guy in question, and those I have seen aren't detailed enough for me to say whether his features are off. I would imagine, though, that since the human brain "prefers" facial symmetry to be as high as possible in social interactions, that those whose features are asymmetrical might suffer in their social development, leading to repressed or at least varied cognitive development. I don't know how much study theories like this have undergone, but I am certainly aware of the theories.

Thanks, and please let us know.

Abandon interest in the notion that bilateral facial symmetry imbalances denote criminality. In fact, ALL human faces exhibit differences in facial symmetry, varying only in degrees. It is not at all indicative of "neurological damage" as Linda informs. Neurological damage affects cognition, not appearance. The notion that physical appearances indicate behavioral pathologies is very old and outdated. Think "phrenology".

As for facial symmetry, if you want to see a freak, find one of those websites where they take a picture of one side of a person's face and then 'flip' it over to create the other side of the face. Perfect symmetry is ugly.

Linda has woven a very fanciful theory from diverse snippets of hearsay, misinformation, dubious correlations, and speculation. That is her right, but for God's sake, do not call it a "theory". Theories are based on evidence. I cannot think of a more unreliable source of information that the Coast To Coast radio talk show.

The more parsimonious hypothesis doesn't require identifying the suspects with the Canadian killer couple, Ted Bundy, snuff films, etc., etc., none of which are in evidence.

Murder is a very common outcome when you get a vulnerable, naive, possibly intoxicated country girl totally out of her element and league alone with one or more sexually revved up male adolescent, also possibly intoxicated. Just these critieria are sufficient to lead to murder, and all the wild speculations about snuff films, minor facial imperfections, Ted Bundy, and some ex-CIA guy tellign tales on Coast To Coast are extraneous elements.

Simply saying "no" to sex is sufficient to push certain assailants over the edge towards murder.

If a date rape drug was used, the perpetrator(s) may have fell foul of a physiological effect called "synergism" wherein the addition of a strong sedative or narcotic to a body already intoxicated on alcohol multiplies effects exponentially, leading potentially to coma or death.

I hypothesize one of two likely scenarios, working with available info specific to the case:

1) One of the suspects, probably Van Der Whatever since he was seen making out with her, murdered her after she refused him sex, and the others are all accessories after the fact -helped him hide the body and cover up.

2) This turned into a gang rape wherein she was killed out of sexual/sadistic frenzy, or afterwards as a calculated desire to eliminate the only witness to their collective crime.

These two types of murder have a long history and are unfortunately very common. It is not necessary to invoke all sorts of wild scenarios, unless, of course, one isn't sufficiently entertained by the facts as they are.

How as that? Am I ranting? I'm trying to rant.

Grendel,

To be clear, I am not at all trying to say that any aspects of appearance can dictate the mental state of a person. What I am saying is that I am aware of the theories that people have a preference for symmetrical features when it comes to faces. Sadly I am in meetings all this week and I don't have much time for research, so I can't point to specifics right now, but I don't believe that the theory I'm talking about has been discredited. Of course, if it has been, I'd like to know about it. Sadly, the same meetings I refer to above also caused my earlier comment to be cut somewhat shorter than I intended it to be. I'll continue below.

Just because someone has asymmetric features (even fairly obvious ones) it doesn't follow that they will be a criminal. What I was referring to is the theory that, due to the preference for symmetry, such people might end up attracting fewer friends, being less successful, and being less socially adept. These are, of course, generalizations and not hard-and-fast rules. Such situations, when combined with other factors could lead to antisocial tendencies. I doubt that just having asymmetrical features by itself would be enough to drive a person to criminal tendencies, but it could by a contributing factor. That said, in the same sense simple ugliness could do the trick as well (which is basically what the theory says — that asymmetrical features are ugly).

One thing that I can recall without further research relates to the comment you made about websites that allow you to create facial symmetry where there was none on famous faces. Having done this (with Einstein, using both halves at different times), I seem to recall that the point wasn't that the preference for symmetry was false, but rather that if symmetry was introduced in a face that you already recognized, it wouldn't look right at all. I also believe that it was taking these steps in order to illustrate the often large deviations from perfect symmetry that many faces may have.

Regarding linda's general thoughts, I tend to think they are more complex than the final answer will be. In general, there is no mystery to crime, and the simple answers are usually correct. As you say, Grendel, this was likely a crime of passion or an incident in which too much force was used in the commission of other crimes inadvertantly resulting in her death. But that's just my theory, and it isn't based on much of anything given the limited evidence at the moment.

And as you know, you are 100% free to rant here. Hey, we don't like being the only ones ranting!

If you look at the kid in question, the Dutch kid, his degree of assymmetry is very small, barely noticeable, and in fact, I think most people would identify him as "a good looking kid".

It takes a considerable degree of physical deformity to reliably induce pathological behaviors, and those seen in the Dutch kid are no where near that degree. Furthermore, there are many attributes that can overrule or overcome, so to speak, any socially imparted deficit -like being a rich kid with an important Daddy on a small resort island paradise. 'Ugly' people can have their sense of self augmented by other attributes, such as athletic ability, musical talent, etc. You, of course, did mention that facial assymmetry is but one of many elements. I don't think it pertains whatsoever in this case.

RE: physical imperfection & criminality, there can be a "chicken & egg/which came first?" dynamic involved. By virtue of living a wild and/or violent criminal lifestyle, one will almost certainly acquire physical imperfections by virtue of scars, broken bones, etc., and from poor medical follow up on same.

There is also the fact that for every butt-ugly psychopath like Henry Lucas, there is a Pretty Boy Floyd or Ted Bundy. David Berkowitz looked like a CPA or science teacher. Where you see as many or more exceptions as rules, it is wise to suspect a correlation error.

Having said all that, I would point out that it most often doesn't really matter what others think, it matters what the person thinks of their own appearance, that what counts is their self-perception. I point to the pervasiveness of cases of aneroxia nervosa as perfect examples of situations where people who look totally normal and acceptable to others nevertheless decompensate into pathological behaviors based on their unwarranted negative self-image, their preception of self as repulsive, inhuman, or otherwise in need of drastic change merely to achieve basic normalcy of apopearance (in their own judgment).

To turn this into a more respectable rant, let me state my opinion that people who drive slow in the left lane because it is easier for them not to deal with those pesky mergers entering from the right ought to be rounded up and shot, then lined up and shot again, then pecked to death by ducks. Venomous ducks, if available.

Grendel,

I'd say that we are in complete agreement. To me, that Van Der Sloot kid didn't look all that ugly (but as I said, I've seen few photos of him), so it may not pertain at all in this case. I also agree that self perception is the important factor in any case where unattractive features causes social problems. Hell, the ugliest person in the world may have no social development problems at all if they have high self-esteem for other reasons. Of course there are many attractive criminals as well, so ugliness doesn't necessarily lead to criminal behavior, nor does attractiveness mean that someone is not a criminal. So, as I said, I think we are in agreement on all of the points.

Especially the one about people driving slowly in the left lane. If there is such a thing as a venomous duck, I will begin breeding them as soon as possible for this very purpose. Man, I hate those slow-driving left-lane people!

RE: Your duck-breeding scheme.....

Please note that it is illegal to have sex with ducks in most states, venomous or otherwise.

I tried horse breeding once, but wasn't nearly tall enough.

Hi,
Thanks for the insightful comments re: my prior entry.

I hadn't thought of phrenology in years. Let's shave his head !!!! (Just kidding.)

While searching for more news today about this story, I found a reference to Geraldo Rivera (God, forgive me for even bringing him up). It was dated the 14th of June and, apparently, he went on a fact finding mission to Aruba and was a guest on Bob O'Reily a few days ago. I didn't see or hear of this until today. (I don't have TV, we don't get a solid signal here in the mountains and I don't have cable.) Anyway, here's a copy of the text of the the blog I found:

"Did anyone see Geraldo Rivera on O'Reilly Factor tonight? Geraldo sure shed some light on Joran's past. Runs all over the island, has one of the nicest cars on the island even though hes not 18 yet, very well known at the school he went to. Gang-raped a fifteen year old and something in reference to trying to sell her to Venezuela. I was shocked. He also said that he was told from a reliable source that something to the effect that the police chief didn't want to pursue this Joran "his father is one of my best friends". "

And this on Scared Monkeys:

"Geraldo reported that they sold copies of a gang rape video of a 14 yr old girl while out at clubs. He stood behind it, so I don’t know if they have a copy or what. US media is pretty careful about false reports. "

Also, same site:

"Sometime last year, ther was an incident about a homemade porn movie involving a 14 year old….not a gang bang, but she did in fact have sex with different boys on the video/dvd….neither Joran or brothers were involved, but they may have copied and sold copies…ALOT of boys sold copies….. "

I hadn't seen anything about this when I went off on my "theory" rant, but, if anyone out there saw GR, what exactly did he say? Just curious.

This sort of behaviour is perfectly in keeping with the fast lane, gangsta, macho crap that Joran VDS wanted to act out.

Also, there was an American girl kidnapped in '98 named Amy Bradley. She disappeared from a cruise ship. When their ship was in Aruba, some guys on the boat wanted her to go to Carlos and Charlie's with them, but they were too creepy and she didn't go. Later she vanished. She is believed to be working in brothels in South America. One guy reported seeing her; said a young woman put her head in the curtain where he was and said, "I'm Amy Bradley, please help me." It took him a while to go to police. By the time they went there, she was gone.

This case is back in the news, since Natalee went missing. When I first heard about the possibility of her being taken away to South America, it seemed a bit far fetched to me, but I'm wondering now if there's possibility that might have happened.

One more thought about the facial features thing. For every sicko that it applies to, there are going to be many more people with the same thing going on who aren't sickos. For example, I'd rather have partied with the Elephant Man than this trio of losers that are in jail. Apparently, he was a nice guy.

By the way, Coast to Coast rules! I prefer George Noory and Art Bell to Geraldo any day.

Thanks,
Linda

Here's something that I thought you folks would like to rip to shreds. Someone has posted their use of Bible Codes (yes, really) to look for prophecies about this case in the Bible. Rather a long read. Followed by their use of tarot and runes and whatever.

We haven't had too many psychics on here, cause all the action is at:

http://www.revelation13.net/KingJames2c.html

Have fun with it! Later . . .

[Note: this took me a while to write, and linda has posted a few more comments since I started. I just want to acknowledge beforehand that I appreciate linda's contributions to our Rant. Don't take any of this too personally, linda!]

Before I have to start dodging poisonous waterfowl with Grendel's arms and Tom's trademark quizzical expression, I just want to chime in here and clear something up.

I can see why Tom's original response to linda might be misinterpreted — since I misinterpreted it myself earlier today! But later I realized why his true opinions didn't come through crystal clear. See, since he's the "sane" one, the one with "tact" and a sense of "decorum," he was a little too polite to linda, which might have made it seem as if he was endorsing her ideas — at least, that's how I saw it before discussing it with him.

linda, no real offense meant (hey, we're all pseudonymous, faceless netsurfers here!), but I didn't find your analysis of the Natalee Holloway case to be particularly workable. You've essentially replaced the typical "psychic fluff" we were expecting in this thread with "pop psych fluff" — but fluff is still fluff.

One really outrageous claim is the one linking physical asymmetry to any mental imbalance or predilection for criminal behavior. As Grendel and Tom already said, there's really no evidence of causation there. I recall reading (long ago) exactly what Tom stated — that we are naturally more attracted to symmetrical as opposed to asymmetrical faces. This makes sense biologically, perhaps, as bilateral symmetry is apparently a pretty big deal among vertebrates (I've consulted a few). Perhaps perfect symmetry indicates healthier genetic material, and this sends signals through our primitive brains that flash: "Attractive!" But the idea that asymmetry is an automatic "turn-off" seems, to me, to be stretching the hypothesis a little. Keep in mind, asymmetry includes your usual scars and broken noses and such — quirky little characteristics which I've found to be something of a turn-on to most people I've met.

(Since I started writing this, linda has responded and pointed out that the asymmetry hypothesis doesn't really hold up. And linda, I agree — I'd hang with Joe Merrick rather than Joran Van Der Sloot any day of the week.)

If anyone thinks that a little BDSM is "pretty sophisticated for a 17 year old" these days, they might need a reality check — we live in a society where twelve-year-olds are having rainbow parties, for fuck's sake. (You don't have to believe Oprah, but I've spoken with a reliable twelve-year-old who confirmed it.) I also think that comparing a teenager's "arrogance" and interest in alternative sexual practices to a couple of sociopathic killers is a bit of a stretch.

Most of the rest of linda's analysis is a collection of far-fetched links between entirely unrelated factors. One of the young men is a DJ with "technical experience with audio-visual," therefore they were making porn or snuff films. Van Der Sloot "wanted to be a JUDGE" and Ted Bundy "wanted to be a lawyer," therefore Van Der Sloot must be just as deranged as Ted Bundy.

Hey, Tom's a fantastic video editor, and I'm obviously pretty disturbed...so we must be conspiring to create pornographic snuff films, too! Right? Our resident legal advisor must be really fucked up since she wanted to become a lawyer! Right? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Now, all that said, could linda's predictions be right on the money? Sure, absolutely! But it's like our teachers always demanded in math class — you have to show your work, not just get the right answer. And in my opinion, linda's guesswork just doesn't hang together well enough to offer a solid hypothesis. If I hadn't been so busy with other matters lately, I would've said so earlier.

However, I will say that linda raised some good points regarding media bias and Americocentrism. The media's bias towards pretty white princesses should not make us ignore pretty white princess Natalee Holloway's plight; and it is indeed a sad fact that the American media concentrates on American news, neglecting important events that happen elsewhere and to non-Americans. Unfortunately, it comes down to the media being in business largely to make money, and most Americans want to hear about Americans. Hey, suicide bombing is practically a daily occurrence in the Middle East, but it doesn't get remotely the same amount of coverage as the September 11th attacks on our own people and our own soil did.

So thanks for pointing those out, linda. Don't let my personal opinion of your detective work keep you from making good contributions — a little disagreement always makes for a spicier Rant!

My initial response was totally in reply to Linda's post, BTW, not to Tom's.

I suspect Linda has arrived at her conclusion first and is picking and choosing among assorted data to build a case for that conclusion after the fact.

Linda...please... enjoy Coast To Coast for entertainment value, but for Dog's sake, do NOT rely on any information you may hear from that source. Ditto: Geraldo. He is less journalist or newsman than that most unctuous of vocations -a TV Personality. "Media" and "ethics" have been rendered pretty much mutually exclusive over the last thirty years, driven apart by the push for the Big Scoop, Ratings, and Profit.

As stated elsewhere, when I become Ruler Of The Cosmos, there WILL be changes. Good news: a janitor on Altair IV has died of a hearts attack and I have just moved up into position 4,928,445,312,767 in the line of succession for ROTC.

Exxxxxxxxxcellent!

Tom said:

I also agree that self perception is the important factor in any case where unattractive features causes social problems. Hell, the ugliest person in the world may have no social development problems at all if they have high self-esteem for other reasons. Of course there are many attractive criminals as well, so ugliness doesn't necessarily lead to criminal behavior, nor does attractiveness mean that someone is not a criminal.

I think you both danced around something that's relevant to the discussion and makes alot more sense than facial asymmetry as a cause for criminal behavior.

A few years back, in the 80s, some nice folks put forth the idea that children should be given nice big shots of unfounded self-esteem to keep them from becoming criminals. So if they failed, they got as much praise as when they succeeded. In the 90s, scientists at Case Western Reserve University and University of Virginia did studies to see what the actual effects were and how they compared to career criminals. (I didn't find the actual study write-ups, they may be out there.) What they found is that criminals have REALLY high self-esteem. In fact, they think so well of themselves that they don't think they have to follow the laws.

Now, compare that to the ugly/pretty criminal argument.

Ugly people could be ostracized enough to become psychotic, without a doubt. However, I'm more inclined to believe they'll just find themselves at Star Trek conventions than killing people, on the whole. (I'll ignore the latest articles on pedophiles all being Sci Fi fans, since they're hearsay.) IMHO, most of the time the self-esteem gets low and no psychotic break occurs. You get mousy little people hanging out with other mousy little people.

On the flip side, let's look at the "average" pretty life. Lots of friends, social inclusion, and so on. How many of the folks in that crowd get into trouble with the law in their youth? Quite a few with drinking, drugging, and other rowdiness. Group behavior testing the bounds of social behavior. Extend that to adulthood, and look at... oh... let's say... Basketball stars. These guys have been pampered and coddled, in many cases, all their lives. They get whatever they want, because their play equals money.

How many basketball players have had run ins with the law as a percentage of the total number? How many geeky Star Trek fans? I don't know, but anecdotally, I'd say the basketball players are winning the bad behavior award.

How does this compare to Joran Van Der Sloot? Based on my half ass research into this story, he's a wealthy kid, from a privileged family, who's got decent looks. There's first hand accounts of alcohol use and partying. There's a videotape of a 14 yr old, him, and a series of his friends having sex with her. There's a reference to the cops not wanting to mess with the kid, although I'm not sure how much weight to put on that. How likely is it that this kid who's got money and good looks has a high self-esteem? What are the odds that someone who's already pushed the bounds of social rules (the videotape), would be willing to do it again with Natalee Holloway? What are the odds that if it went wrong, he would feel he could get away with making her disappear?

Obviously, all circumstantial. All based on generalizations. I'm not saying that JVDS did anything. I just think that the issue is not appearance and psychotic breaks, but self-esteem and certitude that you can do no wrong.

Of course, I could be wrong, I've been wrong before.

(WARNING: APPEAL TO AUTHORITY AHEAD)

As a holder of a Ph.D in Forensic Psychology and over twenty years direct experience with treating criminal offenders, I will say only that "self-esteem" is not something easily measured. There is no empirical x ray or MRI test, obviously.

It is exceedingly easy to mistake simple bravado and machismo for self-esteem. The most common personality disorder by far among criminals is the antisocial personality disorder. Its symptoms are easily mistaken for self-esteem.

'Self-esteem' is one of those poorly defined elements that is bandied about quite a bit, but in reality, it is identifiable primarily in its absence -you know when someone doesn't have it, but a positive ID as 'self-esteem' and nothing else, such as bravado, machismo, cockiness, etc. (or other traits just as likely to exist for coping with and covering a decided lack of self-esteem) is very difficult to measure for accuracy.

You do not understand channeling. Everyone has a 6th sense (Even you. You were aware your sarcastic blog would be rated high in Google so you pursued it.) You might take a look at my site at www.mythforlife.com. I list a prediction for Natalee Holloway as well as RESULTS for the quarterly predictions. You might want to look at the entry about what psychic channeling is and where a channel gets their information. It gives skeptics something a little more practical to review and make a decision about whether they believe in channeling or not. Channeling does have a scientific basis. There are dedicated people as well as hacks in every industry.

We took a shot at it with EVP.
What the heck. Feel free to cut us down if
that's your thang, we're used to it....ha!
Charli

Um, post-dating prophesies has a long and ignoble history. See "Tamarra Rand" who actually FILMED her prediction that President Reagan would be shot... TWO FULL DAYS AFTER IT HAPPENED!

OK, she claimed, as the above channeler does, that the correct prediction occurred before the actual event, but closer scrutiny revealed otherwise.

I don't care what anyone's website says *afte*r the prediction has miraculously come true.

Darn, my prediction failed. Psychics posted.

Oh wait, no they didn't. They're not psychics, they're a channeler and an EVP freak. Which clearly isn't the same as psychics (by the transitive property of addition). My prediction holds true.

Oh, and they're claiming predictive succes, so that part of my vision is true as well.

DAMN I'M GOOD!

First off, congratulations to Shawn on having such amazing supermagical powers! Ooh! Shawn, you might just win this competition — and with victory comes our undying devotion to mentioning that you've won. But not much else, sorry.

Dragonstar — we have to say, we're entirely baffled by your site. We can't tell if you're seriously offering up EVP samples as "real" phenomena, or if you're parodying the people who do it.

If it's a parody, hey, pretty damned funny! (We especially like the "EVP is coming out of the Krups" bit.)

If you're serious...well, no need to cut you down. We've already pretty thoroughly cut down EVP in an earlier Rant. Our previous observations concering the "phenomenon" still stand — EVP is utter silliness. Read our earlier Rant if you want to understand why.

We tried to read what you had to say in this specific case, but as of 6:20 pm (EST) on Thursday evening, the page you linked to was almost entirely blank. We saw content there earlier, but it has inexplicably disappeared. So, well, sorry — we can't point to the specific silliness you had to offer. Let us know if you fix it — we love a good laugh as much as the next guy.

Miraclist — we'll get to your presumptuous ass in just a bit.

I am retracting my Prediction on the Disappearance of Natalee Holloway on
www.mythforlife.com. It is a true and correct reading and time will prove it be so. I have a very high rate of correct predictions and I am willing to document them as such every month on my web site (which other psychics would not do). I have never asked for money for my readings and put the prediction on a public web site FREE of CHARGE for everyone to see hoping to be part of a solution. But the constant barrage of negative, sarcastic feedback on sites such as Scared Monkeys, Skeptico, and the Two Percent Company that the prediction was “eerie”, The psychic is “spooky”, the psychic is a gold digger, and psychic predictions are a scam has led me to see that my other predictions are true. This society of people is doomed. They do not understand the concept of group participation. They do not believe in miracles. They cannot see past their own selfish, pragmatic, mindset. They do not understand the premise that when two or more people gather together with a positive outcome in mind, it BECOMES a psychic experience of linked minds and miracles do happen. All I see in this situation in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway is misinformation, a fractured methodology, and chaotic approach by everyone. The Bloggers will go on insulting people and being rude, arguing and being sarcastic. This means, at its essence, that Bloggers become part of life’s problem. So the world is watching and waiting. Let’s see if Bloggers solve the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Miraclist,

"...and I'm taking my ball and going home!"

Aww, poor you. Hey, you chose to come here and comment on our site. What did you expect us to do? Agree with your razor-sharp logic and admit the folly of our rational ways even though you have no proof at all to support your claims? Get a grip.

We didn't even get a chance to point and laugh at you yet, and already you've started whining about how terrible and unfair we are. That must be a new record. All we've done thus far is call you "presumptuous" (in reference to your assumptions about us) and you're declaring us a part of the downfall of society! Don't you think you're being just a tad melodramatic here?

We never said that your prediction was "eerie," or that you were "spooky" or a "gold digger." In fact, we don't think any of those things that you seemed to ascribe to us (more presumptuousness, it seems). In short, we got a good laugh out of your lame and silly "predictions." Try not to get your panties in a bunch until we have a more complete commentary available.

We've been really busy lately (you know, with that "pragmatic" thing called "real life"), but rest assured we are working on a response to your earlier comment. And since you still stand by the accuracy of your Natalee Holloway predictions (and since we copied and dated them for future reference), we will still address them as part of our response. Then you can demonize us and whine about us being unfair non-miracle-believers all you want.

M'kay?

can any one give me natalee holloways exact birth date , birth time and location of the place of birth i think i can help

Okay, Miraclist, here we go. With all the crap you've dropped on our site, we thought we should reply sooner rather than later. That way, you can justifiably whine about how mean we are. Of course, we haven't even gotten to your "predictions" about the Holloway case yet. We'll get to those as soon as we can in a future reply. And don't worry — we copied them down the other day.

First off, we're guessing that you didn't utilize your prodigious channeling abilities when you wrote your comments, since the assumptions you made about us are completely incorrect. Allow us to correct you using the effective source of information known as actual knowledge. We'll start with your first comment above:

You do not understand channeling.

Bzzzt! Wrong. We understand channeling just fine. We know what it is — it is bullshit. We know what it is supposed to be — it is supposed to be the use of a host body through which another entity is focused or "channeled," such as a ghost, an alien, another person, or a "higher self." We can contrast this with mediumship (which is also bullshit) which is supposed to be acting as a go-between (or "medium") between the physical (or "real") world and some other (or "fake") place. Of course, you may have decided to redefine the term "channeling," for all we know, but that is the generally accepted definition of channeling.

Everyone has a 6th sense (Even you. You were aware your sarcastic blog would be rated high in Google so you pursued it.)

Actually, everyone does have a sixth sense, since — at last count — human beings possess at least nine senses. (Educate yourself: Wikipedia is a good place to start.) But since we know that's not what you were talking about, we'll just call you wrong again. We have no special power to sense anything in a paranormal or supernatural fashion. We certainly have the mental ability to make logical connections, we have creativity, and we have intuition, none of which are at all mysterious. You are also wrong when you suppose that we were "aware" that our blog entry would be ranked high on the Google search list. In fact, a few hours before your comment we had just realized that we are ranked #2 on a Google search for "natalee holloway psychic," and we were quite surprised. More importantly, we never write anything with a high search rank in mind — we write what we believe, whatever the ranking; it doesn't matter to us. Sorry.

You might take a look at my site at www.mythforlife.com. I list a prediction for Natalee Holloway as well as RESULTS for the quarterly predictions.

Oh, we will! We'll address that in our next comment, don't you worry.

You might want to look at the entry about what psychic channeling is and where a channel gets their information. It gives skeptics something a little more practical to review and make a decision about whether they believe in channeling or not.

As we said, we already understand channeling. Please don't assume that our beliefs are based on zero research or zero evidence, just because your beliefs fall into that bucket. We've already made an informed decision — channeling is bullshit.

Channeling does have a scientific basis. There are dedicated people as well as hacks in every industry.

Wow, that was so original! We never hear some quack or "psychic" claim their bullshit has a scientific basis. We love seeing shit like this. "My silly belief is science, really!" If we had a dollar for every time we've seen that statement...followed by absolutely no proof to back it up...we'd be flying our private jet to your house to deliver this message. Channeling has no scientific basis at all, and unless you have some actual proof that you can point to, we suggest that you try to avoid statements like that one. Hell, we can say "the flat earth theory has a scientific basis," but that doesn't mean that the earth is flat. See what we mean?

Also, whether the practitioners of a given discipline (and we use the term very loosely here) are "dedicated" or "hacks" means absolutely nothing with regard to the validity of the discipline itself. There are dedicated lawyers, and hack lawyers, but the status of their dedication or skill doesn't affect the reality of the field of law. And being "dedicated" doesn't mean that someone is "correct." We know lots of "dedicated" Christians; but at the end of the day, the Christian god is a myth.

Now we'll move on to the second comment you left (the one in which you were really whiny and petulant), and look at a few of those statements:

I am retracting my Prediction on the Disappearance of Natalee Holloway on www.mythforlife.com. It is a true and correct reading and time will prove it be so.

Well, that's nice and all, but since you are still saying that it is accurate, we'll still address it in our next reply. Sorry, no "taking down" your statements if you're still, so to speak, supporting them.

I have a very high rate of correct predictions and I am willing to document them as such every month on my web site (which other psychics would not do).

We beg to differ. Nah, we don't beg — we just differ. We used the Wayback Machine to check out some of your past predictions, as posted on your website. Admittedly, we didn't waste a huge amount of time doing this, but maybe that's because of what we saw. Predicting that George Bush would win the election even though Kerry would win the debates is not what we would call a "stretch." We were saying the same thing before the debates, and our predictions were based on knowing that Bush is an idiot, but that he had a nearly unstoppable campaign strategy, as well as good old Karl Rove, the dirtiest motherfucker in politics, who was willing to do anything to win. Likewise, predicting that the Governator would win the California election wasn't too difficult either. Who else was going to win in a media-dominated state (and country)? Mary Carey, the porn star? Diminutive has-been Gary Coleman? Shit, most people were predicting the outcomes you "channeled" — and despite what you may think, they did so with no "psychic" abilities whatsoever. Then there are the predictions that we saw that are just plain false. How about "Scot Peterson Goes Free"? Turns out, that's bullshit. Then there's "Kobe Bryant Convicted of Sexual Assault." Hmmm...nope. We could go on, but we'll leave that exercise to our readers. Hey, maybe some of them have hours to kill laughing at your supposedly "very high rate of correct predictions," but for our dime, that claim is utter bullshit.

I have never asked for money for my readings and put the prediction on a public web site FREE of CHARGE for everyone to see hoping to be part of a solution.

That's nice. What that means to us is that you probably really believe in your own abilities as opposed to being one of the predators who simply fake it to make a buck. That makes you a nicer person, but it doesn't make your "powers" real. Sorry.

But the constant barrage of negative, sarcastic feedback on sites such as Scared Monkeys, Skeptico, and the Two Percent Company that the prediction was "eerie", The psychic is "spooky", the psychic is a gold digger, and psychic predictions are a scam has led me to see that my other predictions are true.

First of all, as we said above, at the time you left this comment, we hadn't said a damned thing about your predictions. Nothing at all. Second, who referred to you or your predictions as "spooky" or "eerie"? It certainly wasn't us — we don't think they are either of those things. We think they are silly, lame, pathetic, and deluded, but not spooky or eerie. We can't speak for Skeptico, but a quick look at his post on the Holloway case doesn't even turn up any mention of you, let alone those terms. So it appears that now you are having trouble even predicting what has already happened. That's a pity since that seems to be your stock in trade.

We would also mention that we never referred to you as a gold digger, nor did we imply in any way that you were even collecting money for your predictions. As we said above, though, that lack of avarice certainly doesn't prove that your powers are real.

This society of people is doomed. They do not understand the concept of group participation. They do not believe in miracles. They cannot see past their own selfish, pragmatic, mindset. They do not understand the premise that when two or more people gather together with a positive outcome in mind, it BECOMES a psychic experience of linked minds and miracles do happen.

Yes, we're all doomed because we rely on science, reason and logic instead of blindly believing in loads of silly nonsense. Wake up. It is precisely the widespread belief in bullshit (including religion) that is responsible for society becoming a mass of intellectual dimwits and uneducated morons. And we'll gladly accept the moniker of "pragmatic," but "selfish" we are not. Quite frankly, we have no idea how you came up with that idea about us, but it's dead wrong. What about our position shows you that we are selfish? Is it our oft-stated position that everyone should be free to live their lives as they see fit as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others? Please explain — we're dying to know. Oh, maybe your "higher self" told you that and there are no details, hmmm?

Also, the act of people getting together with a "positive outcome in mind" does not a psychic experience make. Where the heck do you get that idea from? Does that mean that if we have people over to watch the baseball game and drink beers with the outcome in mind that our team will win then that's a psychic experience? That makes so little sense, we won't even address it any further.

All I see in this situation in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway is misinformation, a fractured methodology, and chaotic approach by everyone. The Bloggers will go on insulting people and being rude, arguing and being sarcastic. This means, at its essence, that Bloggers become part of life’s problem. So the world is watching and waiting. Let’s see if Bloggers solve the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Where the fuck do you get the balls to lob accusations like this at us? First of all, the misinformation, fractured methodology, and chaotic approach are all a result of people like you sticking your noses into something that you know nothing about. If we looked at all of the psychic predictions about Natalee, we'd see just about every possible outcome represented. Therefore, by default, almost all of it is pure misinformation. We can hardly think of a more fractured methodology or a more chaotic approach than that. So, if you want to stop the misinformation, then stick a sock in the mouths of all of the "helpful psychics" who are weighing in, starting with yourself.

Secondly, we freely admit that we are rude when people deserve it. But we hadn't even addressed your comments when you started being rude to us. So now we feel very justified in saying that you can go fuck yourself.

Third, the "bloggers" never claimed to be able to help find Natalee Holloway — you did. You made that claim by posting on our site that you have information about Natalee Holloway, and we are examining that claim. We never made any such claim. In fact, we freely admit (as we did in our original post, above) that we have no ability to assist law enforcement in doing their job. It's time that you did the same. But no, you'd rather toss out a bunch of useless, random information, and then feel like you "helped." Well, it just doesn't work that way, sister. So rather than trying to evade your failure to provide any useful details of this crime by telling us that we can't do something that we never claimed to be able to do, why don't you just admit that your "powers" are bullshit? But no — no matter how wrong you are, you'll never do that, will you? Who's the selfish one here?

As we said, we'll address your actual "predictions" about the Holloway case in a separate reply. Stay tuned!

Ankur wrote:

can any one give me natalee holloways exact birth date , birth time and location of the place of birth i think i can help

Jesus Christ on a stick, I hope you're joking, Ankur. Just in case you're serious, I'll go on the record as saying that we do not have the information you have requested about Natalee.

But have no fear! If you can't use astrology, I can recommend a good Chinese restaurant that you can visit, and perhaps you can apply the fortune cookies to the case. Hey, same thing, right?

I've been channeling Albert Einstein and he says Miraclist is full of shit, and that all the spirits give him bad info as a joke.

this site sucks

Thanks for the stimulating commentary, penis. For your next trick, how about you piss off?

In case it wasn't clear from the trackback above, our analysis of Miraclist's "predictions" about the Natalee Holloway case are now in their own post. Click on the link in the trackback immediately above this comment to check it out.

I certainly never said that the prediction was "eerie", the psychic is "spooky", or the psychic is a gold digger.

However, I make one prediction - Miraclist will not admit she has no psychic powers, but when Natalee is found she will claim her predictions about it were correct.

How to be a psychic:

1) Shoot arrow

2) Draw target around arrow

Hello,

I found this one Riehl World View:

Beginning:
am giving the location of where Natalie maybe located. As a psychic trying to help.They did go to the light house as they said Then they went to park mentioned below . l I believe the she is located in Arikok National park in the area surrounding the 1. Prins Plantation 2. 200 feet from the road 400 feet from a trail. Her head is facing South/West. 3 There are 3 scrub like bushes next to her She is buried under three feet in depth. 4. People that were looking for her passed by and missed where she was buried by 50 feet The area is smooth hump and can not be noticed as being a grave site.. 5. the 17 year old hurt her but the others where there She died at the hands of the 17 year old white male. She died at a turn off road parking lot for a trail head. The two brothers where there and had their way with her. 6. The two black males had nothing to do with the crime.and should be let go. If you have been following my blogs on other sites I had said that the two Black males were not involved in this crime. I hope that this information will help in the investigation and you pass it on to the people that can use this information. I know there are the sceptics out there who blieve she is in south america or other parts of the world. The reality is she is not longer with us here. If you are interested in what happens in a mind of a person or persons who do this kind of crime. Panic sets in they are scared of what they had just done. Now what place on this island would you best dispose of the body where nobody can findit. 1 toss it in the ocean? or 2 bury it where nobody except for those who put her there will find it. A place where at 2-4 in the morning they can put someone with out arising to much suspicion. A place where nobody lives. Check out the map of Arikok national park and where you can park and carry a body and hide it. Not to far from the road but far enough so where it might not be discovered. This is a lead not closer to the case once the body is found. Closure is when the hearts of the parents are put to rest and that the people responsible are punished for what they had committed. My Prayers go out to the family and friends of Natallie.

Did any of you kind people from Aruba find where this park is that this psyhcic says. I mean it doesn't hurt to see what the chances are. Don't no one laugh and dismiss the psyhcics like I said they have been used widely in things. As for you lottery predictions the serious ones won't even touch that stuff.
End

THERE YOU HAVE IT!!!!

Well, that seems pretty specific - anybody on Aruba able to check this one out?

Who knows?

Linda

Pretty specific?

Yeesh.

It's the standard psychic vague guess calculated for retro-fitting when/if the body is found.

It doesn't take superhuman psychic powers to suggest the body was buried in a remote location where few humans are around.

I think a point-by-point deconstruction would be preaching to the skeptical choir and ignored by psychic bleevers and therefore pointless.

Oh, what the hell........

"I believe the she is located in Arikok National park in the area surrounding the 1. Prins Plantation"

This remains a huge area. Choosing a remote area is just wise guessing.

"2. 200 feet from the road 400 feet from a trail. Her head is facing South/West."

WHICH road? WHICH trail? There are likely a great many roads and even more trails. This is classic set-up for retro-fitting later on. 100 feet from a road will be considered a 'hit'. 300 feet from a road will be considered a 'hit'. Same with proximity to a trail.

"3 There are 3 scrub like bushes next to her She is buried under three feet in depth."

There are no doubt 5,000,000 bushes on Aruba. This helps not a whit. If she is on land, you can safely predict that wherever she is there are at least three bushes nearby. "Near" isn't defined. Toledo Ohio is 'near' Detroit Michigan -90 miles.

As for being buried "under 3 feet", so are 99% of all the murdered and buried bodies in history. Killers in a hurry to hide the evidence don't go down the requisite 8 feet. This too is a meaningless guess.

"4. People that were looking for her passed by and missed where she was buried by 50 feet The area is smooth hump and can not be noticed as being a grave site."

This carries somewhat more specificity -a fact that will be regreted by the 'psychic' when/if the body is ever found. Psychics -please! -remember the Golden Rule of Psychics -never make a checkable claim. This still falls under 'guessing by likelihood' however. Searchers have been everywhere and Aruba has a great many 'smooth humps'.

"5. the 17 year old hurt her but the others where there She died at the hands of the 17 year old white male. She died at a turn off road parking lot for a trail head. The two brothers where there and had their way with her."

Anyone who has watched news coverage knows Joran Van Der Sloot is the primary suspect, and knows as well she was last seen by non-suspects getting into a car. Does it take a psychic to guess she'll be killed at a remote turn-off like a trailhead? Bah.

"6. The two black males had nothing to do with the crime.and should be let go."

And were. A long time ago.

I won;t bother with the rest of this, but none of this is even the main issue with so-called "psychics".

In the very first line the 'psychic' says:

"am giving the location of where Natalie may be located."

May be located? Do we need a clearer admission that this 'psychic' sees nothing and is merely passing off guessing as 'psychically' derived knowledge?

If this psychic is truly seeing the location of Natalie's body, wy use the words "may be"?

The only psychic connection this poseur has made was with Sigmund Freud -as evidenced by this Freudian slip by the usage of the words "may be" for information claimed to be psychically known.

Harrumph!

First, we'd like to note that Grendel was likely reading our minds as he was preparing a fisking of this prediction at the same time that we were. We are duly impressed with his mystical abilities. Instead of finishing ours, we'll just punch up his excellent analysis with a few tidbits that we found.

"I believe the she is located in Arikok National park in the area surrounding the 1. Prins Plantation"

This remains a huge area. Choosing a remote area is just wise guessing.

Huge is right. Arikok National Park, which is in the center of the island, is comprised of over 20 miles of trails, as well as rugged back country. All told, about 20% of Aruba is designated as part of this park. Yes, very precise.

"2. 200 feet from the road 400 feet from a trail. Her head is facing South/West."

WHICH road? WHICH trail? There are likely a great many roads and even more trails. This is classic set-up for retro-fitting later on. 100 feet from a road will be considered a 'hit'. 300 feet from a road will be considered a 'hit'. Same with proximity to a trail.

Also, the Prins Plantation is described by Travelocity as follows:

Prins Plantation, a complex of abandoned adobe structures, witnessed the cultivation of hundreds of coconut trees as recently as the 1960s. Passing by an old farmhouse, well, aloe field, and crumbling stone walls, the 45-minute walk provides views of a nearby ocean cove.

So, it isn't one building, it is a complex of abandoned structures that takes 45 minutes to walk through. We noted the 20 miles of trails in the park, and having been to Aruba, what constitutes a road is pretty vague — many are just four wheel drive access to dirt paths. Without knowing which road or which trail to measure from, this prediction is monumentally vague. Add to this the fact that even if the body is found, we may never know this level of detail about where it was found. Not very impressive.

"3 There are 3 scrub like bushes next to her She is buried under three feet in depth."

There are no doubt 5,000,000 bushes on Aruba. This helps not a whit. If she is on land, you can safely predict that wherever she is there are at least three bushes nearby. "Near" isn't defined. Toledo Ohio is 'near' Detroit Michigan -90 miles.

As for being buried "under 3 feet", so are 99% of all the murdered and buried bodies in history. Killers in a hurry to hide the evidence don't go down the requisite 8 feet. This too is a meaningless guess.

Yep, much of Aruba is covered with scrub bushes and trees, so this narrows the search area down to "everything." Way to go, psychic!

"4. People that were looking for her passed by and missed where she was buried by 50 feet The area is smooth hump and can not be noticed as being a grave site."

This carries somewhat more specificity -a fact that will be regreted by the 'psychic' when/if the body is ever found. Psychics -please! -remember the Golden Rule of Psychics -never make a checkable claim. This still falls under 'guessing by likelihood' however. Searchers have been everywhere and Aruba has a great many 'smooth humps'.

Of course the area isn't noticeable as a grave site! What's the alternative...an engraved headstone?

"5. the 17 year old hurt her but the others where there She died at the hands of the 17 year old white male. She died at a turn off road parking lot for a trail head. The two brothers where there and had their way with her."

Anyone who has watched news coverage knows Joran Van Der Sloot is the primary suspect, and knows as well she was last seen by non-suspects getting into a car. Does it take a psychic to guess she'll be killed at a remote turn-off like a trailhead? Bah.

We agree. In addition, which road, which lot, and which trail? Do you know how many places this could describe on Aruba?

Just one other thing we wanted to address from the original "prediction":

I know there are the sceptics out there who blieve she is in south america or other parts of the world. The reality is she is not longer with us here.

Is that what we're supposed to believe as skeptics? To us, that sounds more like what we're supposed to believe as conspiracy theory nuts. As skeptics, we don't believe any such nonsence. Nor do we believe that this loon is a psychic.

As Grendel said, this is the standard psychic mumbo-jumbo that is tailor-made to fit into whatever facts eventually come out. We've also noticed it employs the same disjointed syntax and ambiguous grammar that psychics use specifically so that they can "reinterpret" their predictions after the facts are known. Color us massively unimpressed.

I really hate to stick up for a psychic, but I gotta.

I don't think the "may be" in this case refers to the meaning of the may as in ... "You may consider health issues today." of astrology fame.

Based on the on the quality of spelling and grammar in the post, I'd say it was more of a permission than an admission of doubt. If you have a family member who ever said to you "You CAN have a candy bar, but MAY you?", then you'll get what I'm saying.

What I "get you saying" is the long known phenomenon of believers making excuses for the errors of psychics, of helping them turn mistakes into hits.

The fact is this: If this psychic is truly seeing where Natalie's body is located, the psychic would say:

"am giving the location of where Natalie IS located."

This psychic actually said:

"am giving the location of where Natalie maybe located."

The only error in regards to the obvious poor grammar skills was in making 'may be' one word.

The excuse offered by this 'psychic's' apologist Shawn cites spelling and grammar issues. Alas, using 'may be' instead of 'is' is neither a spelling nor a grammar error. Everywhere else in the post the 'psychic' has no problem with tense or context. It was a slip of the keyboard tongue, as it were.

This 'psychic' knows full well he/she is guessing and not seeing, and unwittingly tipped off that fact by an unwise choice of phrasing.

Taken in its entirety, this prediction was obviously conjured up from scrutiny of the known facts, not 'psychically' derived special knowledge, and directed along the path of highest probabilities.

~*~

And yes -I was reading Two Percent Company minds. BTW... Tom... that buxom young lady behind the counter at Starbucks? Forget it -she's a lesbian. Sorry.

From what I've read from Shawn, he is by no means a true believer — he's one of the good guys.

And to be fair, the word "may," when used in colloquial English, has two possible meanings: one that leans closer toward the definition of "can" (which fits with Shawn's suggestion), and another that leans closer toward the definition of "might" (which fits with Grendel's interpretation). Neither is definitively correct. So Shawn's conjecture is a valid hypothesis, though reasonable people can debate the conclusion.

Of course, the bottom line is that no matter how you interpret the "maybe" part, the actual predictions are laughably vague and vacuous. Typical fluff, no better than semi-informed guesses (and slightly worse in some respects).

True believer? You know I truly believe I'm gonna come over there and kick.. Ahem. Sorry.

Thank you, Jeff, for defending my status as not being a member of the trail mix crowd.

And Grendel, I agree with you and the guys at 2% that overall the predicition is a pile of junk. I just wanted to point out that perhaps you were a touch overzealous. You can't let yourself get so worked up that you stop looking at the full cotext and start tearing apart the minutiae. This way lies narrow, predisposed fundamentalist thought. And a fundamentalist skeptic is a terrifying thing.

My full and hearty apologies to Shawn!

In reading your post I mistook your defense of a point as the defense of her premise, and for that I am sorry.

However, I will not overloook the minutiae, for within is often important data. That way " lies narrow, predisposed fundamentalist thought" if it is done knowingly and purposely, or, if once identified, it is not remedied. ;o)

Oh hey 2 percenters!
How ya doin? Been collecting the ghost jive just like I promised and you can listen to the results at:
http://www.coffeepotghost.com/Natalee_Holloway_Clues.html
We hope you'll not find this too, too vague. It is part of our smiling service to entertain you skep-dick dudes, and we really do aim to please.

Call to Psychics for predictions on Holloway case, absolutely! I agree with this more than 2 percent, I agree 100%. Rise to the challange and put it out there I say! Otherwise it's bullshit and you are correct. When we're wrong, it's confirmed bullshit and YOU RULE :D Seriously, I back up your challange to prognosticators, soothsayers and road side gypseys world wide: STEP UP TO THE PLATE OR SHUT THE HELL UP!
Charli

Well, I went and listened to the offered reverse speech/EVP/whatever files offered in the above post.

Somebody owes me five minutes of my life back.

That others might be saved from wasting holiday weekend free time -don''t bother. It''s the standard pareidolic 'thinkful wishing' sort of nonsense you already suspect. What a crock, lol.

~*~

The psychics have had ample time to provide definitive details by which the body cold be located. They have failed.

So... where are all the remote viewers????? Why haven't they located the body?

I will compensate you. What were your 5 minutes worth? Not my intention to destroy 5 minutes of your life. Got payPal? send me the bill for your 5 minutes or PM your friggin address and hourly rate so I can send you a check.
Charli

>Somebody owes me five minutes of my life back.

That would be me, asshole.
Again....I ask: what's your address? I want to restore you back to the person you used to be.
I cannot live with the guilt of stealing 5 minutes of your life. Those could have been productive minutes....but now we will never know. You might have written the next great novel; you could have changed the world in that short time span.....I am so sorry. Send me the bill so I can leave and put this terrible inequity behind me.....puleeeze. I cannot take this guilt.
Vanquish me forever from 2 percent.
(I've always prefered whole anyway).

You sound angry and bitter. Are you alright?

Are you actuallly serious with the sound bites on your website? Your website plays better as parody.

Sheesh, what's with the persecution complex, Charli? Like Miraclist, you didn't even give us a chance to respond to your post and you've already come down on us ("Vanquish me forever from 2 percent.")

In case you haven't broken the code, Grendel is one of our readers, and not one of the authors of this blog. You can always tell when "we" are commenting since we put the name of the site in our name (such as "Tom from the Two Percent Company"). Grendel, like all of our readers, is more than welcome to comment here, but he isn't "us." We say this only so that you realize that we haven't said anything about your predictions yet.

Now, that said, based on our brief look at your site, I doubt that our conclusions will differ substantially from Grendel's, but at least wait until we've posted them before you piss all over us. Cool?

And remember — you chose to come here and answer our call. You did this knowing that we are skeptics and knowing that we would apply logic, reason, and critical thinking to your predictions. If you don't like our conclusions, that really isn't our concern.

We'll get to you in the near future (as our recent post says, we have somewhat sporadic site access over the holiday weekend).

He's ducking you, Dragonstar -your stuff is just that good.

Hello

Hello.

Natalee Is Dead Van der Sloot knows what
happened!!!

SHe is dead, she is not coming back. When you got to a foreign country, you are subjuct to their laws, not the laws of the US. Anyone parent that lets a 18 year old child go on a trip to a foreign country, should bare some ot the resposibility. WHAT WERE HER PARENTS THINKING?

The parents are no different than those who lose children that cross the Mexican border and are never heard from. There sure aren't helping themseleves by insulting the Arauban Authourities.

This should be a lesson, for all who wish to travel to a foreign country....YOU ARE AT THE MERCY OF THE HOST COUNTRY, REGARDLESS OF YOUR U.S. CITIZENSHIP.

Okay. Both of the previous comments are neither here nor there in relation to psychic predictions.

While I agree with the statement made by DJN (that when in a foreign country, you are subject to the laws of that country), I certainly don't take that as a lesson that we shouldn't travel to other countries. I also don't blame the parents of an eighteen year old for allowing their child to travel without parental supervision. There's only so much a parent can do, then you just have to trust your kid. At eighteen, that point has certainly been reached.

I think it's awfully easy to blame the victim. Even getting drunk on the last night of a Senior Trip and going for a midnight roll in the hay with who must have seemed like an exotic European lad doesn't justify getting murdered, like she should of 'known better' and should have expected to get murdered behaving thusly. By that logic, Joran (if she's dead and he's the killer) might have expected to be murdered by Natalie Holloway. It's crazy thinkin' to blame the victim and call it a case.

I have not forgotten how it felt to be 18. This does not sound like a case of wild-ass behavior on her part that anyone might have predicted could or would lead to her own death. She was a high school senior on her Senior Trip partying with a local, a judge's son. It's not like she went alone, drunk, at 3 am, into the slums of Bogota, Calcutta, or Mexico City with twenty dollar bills sticking out of her shorts. That behavior might predict harm.

Do not blame her. Blame the killer and no one else.

Okay, Charli/DragonStar. Here's our "official" response to your EVP insight into the Natalee Holloway case. For reference, all quoted text is from Charli's site, which our readers can visit to verify what we're talking about. We are going to tackle this on a few levels.

First, let's start with the EVP in general. In a previous Rant, we stepped through many different types of EVP that we've come across, as well as the explanations for them. We highly recommend reading that post for background information. On your page dedicated to Natalee Holloway, Charli, you only utilize two of the types of EVP messages that we discussed — WiP-EVP (Walrus is Paul EVP) and TSL-EVP (That Sounds Like... EVP).

In WiP-EVP, we see the old "the Walrus is Paul" line of crap, in which some form of speech is played backwards and messages are heard. You have chosen to do this with what sounds to us like a radio broadcast in a different language. It is no surprise that, when played backwards, speech still sounds like speech. Of course, the reverse speech can range from vaguely clear in its "meaning" to ridiculously nebulous; but no matter the quality of the "message," it is entirely subjective.

In TSL-EVP, the EVP practitioner doesn't even bother to reverse the speech — they just play a message in a foreign language and decide what words the foreign words sound like in their native language. To us, this is nearly the height of silliness in EVP (deciding that vague clicks and whirs are speech is the height of silliness in EVP). We have a wonderful example of this type of EVP in our old Rant — check it out.

Both of these forms of EVP generally become more clear once you know what the message is "supposed" to say; if you know the target phrase beforehand, you can hear the message. To be sure, this isn't always true — some are just meaningless crap. But let's look at a few examples from your site, Charli.

To start, we played a sound file at random, without knowing the title of the sound, and we wrote down what we thought it sounded like (we were actively trying to assign English words to the sounds, which is what most EVP practitioners are doing). For each example we selected below, we will post the sound file along with our interpretation (read: guesses), followed by the "actual" words from the EVP site (click and drag over the blank spots to read the text). To our readers: start by listening to the sound and trying to assign words to it. Then read our words and re-listen to see if you can hear those. Then read Charli's words and listen again. Most people should get the message pretty clearly — this is all highly subjective. [Note — there are spoilers shortly after the box below, so avoid scrolling down too far if you don't want to ruin the effect.]

SAMPLE 1: Reverse Speech (WiP-EVP)

Two Percent: Hey now we are replaced in the Florida.

DragonStar: Hey Natalee abraised in the forehead.

SAMPLE 2: Reverse Speech (WiP-EVP)

Two Percent: Almost motility eat at Omi-Da

DragonStar: Normal facility near Florida

SAMPLE 3: Reverse Speech (WiP-EVP)

Two Percent: (We heard nothing on this one until we read Charli's words...now we can't help but hear those)

DragonStar: Now she knows icicle on the shelf

SAMPLE 4: Foreign Speech (TSL-EVP)

Two Percent: (Sorry, we heard fuck all nothing on this one, even after we read Charli's words)

DragonStar: Look under the hotel

SAMPLE 5: Foreign Speech (TSL-EVP)

Two Percent: (We heard fuck all nothing on this one too, even after reading Charli's words)

DragonStar: Look under the hotel

Of course, your mileage may vary, but hopefully this illustrates the extremely subjective nature of these messages. We know it did for us.

Next, let's pretend that we agree that the EVP messages are saying what you believe they are saying, Charli. This is a huge (and truthfully incorrect) assumption, given what we went through above; but let's pretend anyway. So, pretending that the interpretations of the EVP messages on your site are correct, we have absolutely no idea how the hell you were able to apply the messages to the Natalee Holloway case. This is because they are far more like random statements than they are like statements about any subject in particular. Let's briefly go through some examples.

Charli lists the following EVP messages:

15_NOW_SHE_KNOWS_ICICLE_ON_THE_SHELF (rigor mortise)

26_THEY_SAW_THE_HAND_FROZEN-- -- (rigor mortise)

Why do these references to ice refer to rigor mortis? If the "spirits" wanted to convey a message about rigor mortis, why not just say "rigor mortis"? Why refer to ice? Of course, this is nothing but a highly subjective meaning assigned to a highly subjective interpretation of foreign speech. That's two layers of subjective analysis in order to get to the meaning of "rigor mortis." To us, this is the antithesis of "precise," to say the least. These aren't the only examples of subjective analysis — not by a long shot. Here are two more:

REVERSED_27_YOU_HAVE_NEVER_BEEN_IN_THIS_HOTEL_IN_FLORIDA (palm Beach, Fl.=Palm Beach Aruba)

...

REVERSED_29_A NORMAL_FACILITY_NEAR_FLORIDA(palm Beach, Fl.=Palm Beach Aruba)

The same issue applies here as well. The "spirits" are talking about Florida. Why does this equate to Aruba? Yes, we know that there are towns called Palm Beach in both places, but so-the-fuck what? There are towns called Palm Beach (or some variant) in a variety of locations. If the message was supposed to be about Aruba, why not say "Aruba"? Readers: go ahead and check the site to see a whole host of similarly subjective analyses.

Now, Charli — assuming that we agree with your EVP message interpretations (as mentioned above, a nonsensical assumption), and assuming that we agree with your incredibly subjective analyses of these statements as outlined on your web site, we have no idea how the hell you then reached your overall narrative for the case based on these messages. Again, let's briefly step through some examples. Let's check one section of messages and the narrative that you aver springs forth based on those messages:

The story-fabricators also selected two security guards known as regularly patrolling in the vicinity of said hiding place as the scapegoats. The body-hiding consultant being familiar with a hiding place close to Natalee's hotel, the Holiday Inn. In other words, the body-hiding consultant has been to this hiding place before, it was not a quick, random choice or created for the occasion. Ergo, her body will be found within the security guards' customary patrol area.

_21_FIND_OTHERS
13_NATALEE_HAS_HEARD_YOU
14_WELL_KNOWN
15_NOW_SHE_KNOWS_ICICLE_ON_THE_SHELF (rigor mortise)
16_I_KNOW__SEVERAL_BODIES_THERE---

In this excerpt from DragonStar/Charli's web site, we see the narrative prediction, followed by the supporting EVP files. The narrative is about the security guards' patrol area and selecting a place to hide the body; the series of EVP messages are about "finding others," and "well known" something, and "icicles" (sorry, rigor mortis). What in the world does one have to do with the other? Unless we employ a third layer of completely subjective analysis to these messages, there is no connection. Quite honestly, even if we apply that third layer, we can't really make any kind of connection. To us, it is just complete nonsense. Again, readers, check the site for oodles of examples of this same thing.

Further, we have no idea how the sections of "predictions" were ordered. We see numbers assigned to each message, but we don't know what these indicate. Are the numbers the order in which the messages were actually received? Or the order in which they were subjectively assigned to words? Or something else? We did notice that the numbers run in order for short groups, but overall they are out of order. We don't know what that signifies, but we somehow doubt it's anything that will help to validate these silly messages as coming from "beyond the grave."

So, to recap: EVP is, by itself, a silly and easily explained "phenomenon." In short, you are subjectively assigning words where there are none, then subjectively defining what those the statements you make up "really mean," then subjectively extrapolating a hypothesis of the case that goes far above and beyond the subjectively defined, subjectively heard messages. This is, quite clearly, a large and ridiculous load of bullshit. Just, you know, wow.

We have to say, we are pretty bummed that your site isn't a parody of EVP people, Charli — as we said and as Grendel echoed, it really plays well as a parody! Sadly, that does not seem to be the case. Our suggestion is to stop wasting your time trying to hear voices; but at the end of the day, you are certainly free to do so. Shit, waste your whole damned life doing this, if that's what makes you happy. Just don't expect anyone with any intelligence to embrace your brand of bullshit.

Wrapping up, we'll quote one of your last EVP messages:

35_HOW'S_THE_GUESS ?

Pretty poor, Charli. Pretty poor.

Actually you've missed the best part of the EVP BS if you read the various EVP sites what they recommend is that you record random sounds (one even goes as far as to suggest places with voices, restaurants, train stations etc) then the next step is to electronically shred the tape with a virtual food processor and the re-assemble the random bits and then go for the WiP-TSL correlation

Yah, EVP works as well as homeopathic medicine

The 'spirit world' , by definition, must be filled with trillions of spirits or more. The real world is filled with an ever-changing tableau of human events and occasions upon which a given spirit might wish to, um, comment. How exactly do these EVP-ers always find the right spirits to match with the desired human event? Amazing that....

Perception begins with collection of sensory input via our senses and ends with a conclusion. In between is the most important part of the process -the interpretation of the sensory input. This is where the subjectivity of the bleever taints the conclusion.

See a nondescript water stain on the wall? Well, that's just your interpretation of what your eyes see. To a Catholic that might just be an image of Jesus or the Virgin Mary. Pareidolia.

Likewise, EVP-ers interpret what they hear in collusion with their subjective, preheld beliefs about what is there to be heard.

They are not making connections between nonexistent dots -they are making nonexistent connections between existing dots.

There is a human disposition to what one might call 'the simpler, easier way', shortcuts to valuable knowledge or shortcuts to achieve otherwise much more difficult results. EVP is a perfect example, applied here to uncover the facts behind a mysterious event, the disappearance of Natalie Holloway.

Personally, I am offended by the co-option and abuse of human tragedy merely to create false claims of superhuman abilities for onesself. Too many people tread too lightly -it is sick behavior.

natalee is near the fishing shacks, if you are facing the fishing shacks, and walk into the brush you will find a mud hole 12x 14 feet in size. stand at the edge closest to the ocean walk 20 feet dig 4 to 6 feet down and you will find her. someone please tell the family.

Oh, give it a rest, Sue. Find a hobby. Go outdoors.

sue,

Oddly, we are unable to get a fix on Natalee's location based on your prediction. We have a few clarifying questions that would help us immensely. Please let us know the answers.

natalee is near the fishing shacks,

What fishing shacks? Where are they? We're assuming they are on Aruba (though we could be wrong), but where?

if you are facing the fishing shacks, and walk into the brush you will find a mud hole 12x 14 feet in size.

If we are "facing the fishing shacks" and walk forward, won't we bump into a shack? How does that work?

stand at the edge closest to the ocean

Stand at the edge of what? The mud hole? We are assuming that the mud hole is just a swampy area of wet dirt. Is that correct?

walk 20 feet

Walk 20 feet in which direction from there?

dig 4 to 6 feet down and you will find her.

When we dig 4-6 feet down, are we digging in the mud hole? Or somewhere near it? Based on the dimensions of the mud hole (12x14 feet) and the distance we are walking (20 feet), we assume we are not digging in the mud hole (since even the diagonal of this approximate rectangle is less than 19 feet long). Can you clarify?

In short, these predictions are sort of like a treasure map that says to walk twenty paces from the tall palm tree without telling us where the palm tree is or how to recognize it when we see it. Much like our hypothetical map, you have provided some details, but they are not useful as they exist right now.

For now, we'll consider your prediction incomplete since it isn't detailed enough to allow anyone to locate Natalee. If you provide the details above, we'll gladly listen.

Out of curiosity, by what means did you arrive at your information?

Can you imagine how many 'fishing shacks' there are on Aruba?

Yeeeesh.

it is my belief she is 50 miles off the coast of Palm Beach, Aruba.

50 miles off Aruba, eh? We'll send a row boat immediately. How long could it take to search 13,000 square miles of open ocean? We'll have her by noon.

sachmo,

You say that she "is" 50 miles off the coast of Palm Beach, Aruba. Does that mean as of the time of your comment, or at the time of the disposal of evidence, or at some other point in time?

The problem is that currents and other environmental factors are constantly able to change the location of things that are placed in the ocean. The other problem is that this prediction will probably never be proven or disproven as any evidence dumped into the ocean all those weeks ago will likely not be found at this point. The other other problem is that you provided no direction — a compass heading would suffice — for our 50 mile journey.

So, like the previous prediction from sue, we will consider this one incomplete. Please feel free to fill in the missing details right here. We'll also accept other details of the crime, the investigation, or the trial.

Also, we are curious as to how you received your information. We always like to hear about the nature of the abilities behind the predictions.

To Natalie Holloways Family:

I cannot imagine your pain, and feeling of despair.

Please do get a Physic involved in at least getting a lead on your daughter. What have you got to loose and I personally believe they would be of great help.

Please do this immediately.

To Natalie Holloways Family:

I cannot imagine your pain, and feeling of despair.

Please do get a Physic involved in at least getting a lead on your daughter. What have you got to loose and I personally believe they would be of great help.

Please do this immediately.

Okay, this is the kind of stuff that pisses us off. Seriously, Margaret — did you even bother to read the Rant you're commenting on? Or did you just do a quick search for Natalee Holloway, find our site, and post your brilliant suggestion thinking both that you came up with an original idea and that the Holloway family would be checking out our site to find such ideas?

See, if you bothered to read our post above, Margaret, you would see that Natalee's mother already consulted with a psychic. Fat lot of good that did, huh?

Besides, based upon the host of psychic predictions that we've been chronicling in this very thread, and the wide array of bullshit we've seen from them, the last thing we'd recommend to Natalee's family would be to contact another psychic. We can't even imagine someone following all of the vague and bogus leads that we've seen in these comments alone! They'd be rowing around Aruba in a 50 mile radius, pacing next to every fishing shack on the island, digging up the entire National Park in Aruba, and checking South America for a white slavery ring.

We can only guess that you either didn't bother to read the Rant you commented on, or you are too oblivious to comprehend what you read. Please let us know which it is. Really, we're dying to know.

And what does Natalee's family have to lose? How about money, time, psychological health and their actual memories of their daughter, just to name a few things. Come on, Margaret — get real.

Um, Margaret didn't advise Natalie's family to get a psychic, she advised a physic.

Now, what might a physic be?

Physician? Physicist? New form of remote viewer? Perhaps we need a psychic to tell us what a physic is?

Well, see, we're ahead of you there, Grendel. Did you notice how it took us almost three hours to reply to Margaret? We spent that time recording EVPs from our pencil sharpener.

After the first hour, all we had was a bunch of ghostly whirs, so we turned on the television in the background. After two more minutes of recording (and 135 minutes of audio enhancements), we had something that might sound a little bit like the following message from "beyond the sharpener":

Bitch can't spell — she meant a "psychic."

So there you go, then.

Are EVPs from a pencil sharpener easier to erase?

~*~

Let's start a betting pool...

How long do we think it will be (and it may well have already occurred) before someone combines EVPs, reverse speech, hidden codes (a la Bible codes), and numerology?

I read in one of the blogs somewhere that a psychic said she's by some "Jane Freighter Sea Wreck" that is a famous dive place in Aruba. Has anyone heard that place was ever searched??

PC,

As an avid diver who has been to Aruba (and also as someone who happens to have a book called "Best Dives of the Caribbean" sitting on his desk), I can fill in a few details of the wreck in question.

From the book:

Just south of Mangel Halto lies the Jane Sea, an impressive 250-ft cement freighter intentionally sunk by local dive masters to attract fish. Jane Sea's bottom rests upright in 45 to 90 ft of water. Good for photography.

In general, there are two types of wrecks — those sunk accidentally and those sunk intentionally as dive sites and/or fishing sites. Clearly, this wreck was sunk for divers as it was sunk by local dive masters. Anyway, when it comes to diving, the differences between accidentally sunk and intentionally sunk wrecks revolve around depth and accessibility. When a wreck is sunk specifically as a dive site (as this one was), large holes are cut into the hull and throughout the interior in order to make penetration and exploration easier.

The result of all of this is that the wreck is more frequently dived and more thoroughly penetrated than an accidental wreck would be. This hypothesis is borne out by the fact that the local Red Sail dive shop in Aruba lists the Jane Sea as one of the top five sites in the area. So, it is in fact a very popular dive destination.

All of this means that since the time that Natalee went missing, there have likely been as many as a dozen or more dives to this wreck per week. Has it been searched? We'd give that a resounding "Hell yes."

In addition, the note that this wreck is "good for photography" leads us to believe that visibility is exceptionally good (as it is in much of the Caribbean anyway). Clear water just makes it easier to see any evidence that might be tucked away in this popular, easily accessible, oft-visited tourist attraction.

Basically, hiding something here would be akin to dropping it on the steps of the Statue of Liberty.

Ommmmmmmm... focusing now.....
Ommmmmmmm... ok, we have the body.....
Ommmmmmmm... she is.... she is......
Ommmmmmmm... almost.. have ..it ..now....

OK, I've got it.

Natalie is located about 3,000 miles east of Los Angeles, give or take.

Grendel, you silly, silly boy. You've calibrated you dowsing rod incorrectly. She's not 3000 miles east of LA +/- 10%. She's 20000 miles WEST of LA +/- 10%

Damn it. I'm sorry. I used a calibration table I downloaded from the Sylvia Browne website. I should have spent the bucks for the one I wanted on the John Edward site.

OK, then. Let me know when they find her.

I have discovered recently my ability to
communicate with those who passed on. I am
not always 100% in my readings with friends
and family who need comfort but very close
to it.

Each time I see the Holloway case on the news
I feel like I need to do something to reach out.

I have some information and not sure it
is accurate but if it would help the family and
point investigators in the right direction I would
like to give it a shot.

I saw a vision in which Natale was buried in
Boca near monumnets in pastel colors and than transported to a cemetery. I see a man reading a newspaper for a listing of
Obituraries of the recent deceased to find a fresh
grave. I know it sounds a bit much but I need to share.
burial

I am deeply offended by people who co-opt the misery of others simply to get their own needs met.

If you "need to share" go talk to a minister.

angela,

What you have "discovered" recently sounds an awful lot like your imagination, as opposed to some fanciful mystical ability. But hey, that's just us. Let's get to your predictions.

First off, "Boca"? Boca what? If you know that the place you are seeing is "Boca" (Boca Raton? Boca West? Some other Boca?) then you must have a reason why you believe that. Did you "see" a specific landmark or feature that you know to be in one of the Bocas? Or perhaps a street sign of a street that you know in a Boca? Did your vision start out as a satellite view and slowly zoom in on southern Florida? What was it that said "Boca" to you?

Or was it these "monuments" in pastel colors that tipped you off? If so, which monuments were they, or what did they look like? For our dollar, "pastel colored monuments" could describe an awful lot of southern Florida, so if we "saw" such things in a "vision" we wouldn't know exactly where in southern Florida we were "seeing." Help us out with some details here.

One thing we're really fuzzy on is burying the evidence near these monuments, and then transporting it to a cemetery later. Why not leave the evidence at the monuments, or bury it in the cemetery in the first place? Where are these monuments placed in unspecified Boca that someone could perform the burial and the disinterment without being noticed? Please — share.

We're also fuzzy on why someone would read obituaries to find a fresh grave. Obituaries won't tell you where in a cemetery someone is buried — that'll still take some searching. In fact, the best way that we can come up with to find a fresh grave would entail skipping the newspaper altogether, and just wandering through the cemetery. That said, did you happen to notice any details of the newspaper? Perhaps the name of the paper, or the date, or the name of the first occupant of this "fresh grave"? We're guessing no, but we'd love to be surprised here.

All in all, this doesn't sound like "a bit much" at all — quite the opposite. There's nothing helpful in any of this. We have "a man" reading a newspaper, with no description of the man and no details of the paper. We have "pastel colored monuments in Boca," with no description of the monuments and no details of why you think it was Boca (or which Boca you thought it was). We have the victim's body being "transported to a cemetery," but without a description of the mode of transportation (be it automobile, rickshaw, or camel back) or the people doing the transporting. Then we have a "fresh grave" without any mention of the name on the headstone, or even just a description of the headstone.

Finally, please refrain from saying that you're writing this here in order to help Natalee's family. Chances are pretty slim that Natalee's family is going to read this site. You want a prediction? We predict that you write this kind of shit all over the internet so that you can validate your personal belief that you are a "good person." However, leveraging the pain of others in order to make yourself feel better has exactly the opposite effect.

But hey, that's just us using our imaginations.

"Boca" means 'mouth of' in Spanish and is typically used to name a place where a river or creek meets the sea.

In Spanish historied Aruba or Florida, there are literally hundreds of place names with the word 'Boca' involved. Add to that thousands of neighborhoods, buildings, apartments, restaurants, etc. with then name 'Boca' involved.

Using the word 'Boca' in a psychic clue is 100% consistent with the psychic practice of making a likely guess that can be retrofitted later as a 'hit'.

It's like 'seeing' the word 'Tarheel' in connection with some mystery here in North Carolina. Of course, here in NC every other block has a business or sign with the word 'Tarheel' in it, not to mention the billions of dollars in sports merchandizing with the word 'Tarheel' on it, in reference to the UNC Tarheel sports teams. 'Tarheel' would be an excellent fake clue that would very likely become a 'hit' without much effort. You could hardly throw a stone while blindfolded here without it landing in view of the word Tarheel.

Well i had a dream of 3 whilelarge homes, a police dog was trying to get into one of hte homes tearing at the door. Would someone please check inside a white large home??

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Holy shit, that's funny. Wow.

Ooh! Quick! Check that white large home! You know, that one! Or that other one! Gotta be one of 'em, right? No mention of the home being in Aruba...but still, we know it's white! And large!

These people are so fucking comedic; we wish they could actually see that themselves.

Oh, man. That is funny.

Well smart ass, i guess i forgot to mention the homes where in Aruba.. geesh... I dont see any great things coming from your fingers or MIND?????? so chill !

sandra,

Hey, now — go easy there, killer. Your "prediction" really did make us laugh. A lot. We really weren't being sarcastic — it was hilarious. In addition, we sincerely wish that you could share in the laughter that resulted from your comment. Of course, we can only assume that you didn't mean for it to be funny, but that's hardly our fault.

How could you have ensured a more serious and sober reception for your "prediction"? Well, you could have read and followed the guidelines that we outlined in our post above:

We can guess that various other "psychics" and "mediums" have already chimed in on this case; or, if they haven't, they soon will. We can just hear them now: "She'll be found near water." Hey, pretty good guess, considering that she went missing on a fucking island. So none of that vague nonsense — we're looking for details.

The keys phrases here are "none of that vague nonsense," and "we're looking for details." If you think that your "white large home" prediction meets our criteria, then please explain how. Otherwise, don't get pissy with us because you didn't follow the submission guidelines.

Seriously, "white large homes"? That could describe any number of neighborhoods on the island of Aruba, and literally millions of neighborhoods throughout the entire world. Be honest — can you really not see why we consider your "prediction" to be exceedingly vague?

And just so you know, the reason that we didn't just assume that you meant the house was on Aruba is because we've already seen predictions that place Natalee in South America, Florida, and elsewhere across the globe. We were, in all sincerity, pointing out an omitted detail on your part that we would have taken for granted a month ago, but which various "psychic predictions" have shown us is not at all a given.

Oh, and sandra, if by "great things" you mean "fake psychic bullshit" then you are absolutely correct — by that definition there are no "great things" to be found on our site (at least not authored by us). We, of course, have a slightly different definition of "great things."

In closing, and getting back to your "prediction," please let us know if you suddenly see "a sedan in the driveway" or "a tree near the house" — 'cause, you know, that would certainly narrow it down. (Now there's some sarcasm.)

Ok, Ok, I was very Vague... Honestly in the dream of course it was palms around so i would assume it was a tropical island or near one. Sorry no I didnt read the outline and comment policy.. i will get to that soon. Ok back to the dream. it was itself very vague, again where there are palms, warm like it would be in Aruba or?? But heck it is warm in Ga, Ky Nc, lots of places but it jsut seemed strange to me i would dream this out of nowhere? The houses i saw yes 3 of them, this german shepard went running to all of them but went back to one he sniffed out at first. He was clawing at the door and tore off what looked like a brass kick platebut the kick plate was under and attached to the door handle. the shepherd was ripping it apart.. and people started going in that direction.. This is all i know .. sorry if i am not a preofessional at this yet but give me time to read your policy and i will get back with you. I am also in the middle of moving so be patient with me. Thanks

It wasn't our comment policy that we were talking about, sandra — you don't seem to be in danger of violating that. We were talking about the post that you commented on. In general, we were indicating that you should read a post thoroughly before adding a comment to it. That's all.

In regard to your dream, we have a really simple question. You had a dream involving three white houses, palm trees, a German Shepherd, and a brass kick plate. What we're struggling with is: exactly what about this dream made you say, upon waking, "Hey! That was about Natalee Holloway"?

Allow us to use one of our own members' dreams as an example for you. Two nights ago, Tom dreamt about three houses, but all were made of wood (with stained wood shingles on each as opposed to paint or colored siding). The houses were all connected to one another, though they were all large. Tom had just bought the one in the middle, and had started moving stuff in. Suddenly, a small fire broke out, but rather than fighting the fire, Tom left and walked around the block. When he came back, the house was mostly destroyed by fire, and he was only able to slip into the basement to recover a few items before it collapsed entirely.

What does this have to do with Natalee Holloway? Beats the heck out of us, but it seems just as relevant to the case as your dream does. See what we mean? It's just a dream. There's nothing about Natalee Holloway in it, but if we wanted to, we could easily apply it to that case. Heck, we could say that people should search wooden houses, or houses that have recently burned down. We could assume based on the summer clothes Tom was wearing in the dream that he was in a warm climate, and that it could be Aruba. But we could also "interpret" this dream to link it to anything else, if we wanted to.

Even if there was something that directly tied a dream to Natalee Holloway, such as a picture of her posted on the door of a white large house, we'd still come back to the same point: it's just a dream — just interesting neural impulses that flash across our brains as we sleep, and are interpreted as sensory information by the human mind.

This has happened too many times before.Beth is the first one to call national attention to these abductions.Paul has lots of money and isn't even a judge yet.He has high connections.What I truely feel (I'm not a nut or psychic),but have such a deep feeling that she was taken by boat, as many have speculated, for a prostitution ring. Joran met up with her at a casino and they agreed to meet at the bar.THEN Joran called his friends to bring them along. Why if he wanted to be alone with her? I would do more forensic tests on the party boat. AND have the United States do the tests! I feel that there is a big cover up going on.Sure they seem cooperative now with searches of the island..unlike the beginning of this case! It's strange that they would let Paul out jail right away along with the other 2. After the taunting statement he made! "No body,no crime." They also gave him plenty of time before he was taken into custody.The racket ball club might also play a part in all this.Does Paul have any connection to the club besides memberships? I would investigate his phone calls and find out every person he associates with. If it actually was a murder..is there a way to catch and test the sharks by dropping in bloody meat to attract them and catch at least10 of them?Would there be DNA evidence within the sharks or would that be eliminated by now? I'm sorry that I'm not a phychic..Just a mother of 2 teens..I have eyes in back of my head and I'm expected to read minds! We are keeping Natalee in our prayers for her safe return to her loving family.

OK, here goes. Natalee died accidentally but she was drugged. The comments of witnesses confirm that she was "out of control" and falling. The statement that she refused to ge out of the car and had to be forced out; they say she then fell but said "fuck you". "I can get up on my own." This statement is a reflection of the guilt that the three share.
Valero Refinery is important to Aruba. The Italians that own the refinery also own memento mori funeral home and crematorium in Orangestad. She was taken there and cremated for around $400 u.s. paid to a night crematory operator.
She was already dead. It wasn't murder. Her mortal remains have changed their state of being from a solid to cremains. Joran is a smart boy.
wait and see. I'll enjoy your snickering and then you can enjoy my accuracy.

I tend to agree with the cynics. Allison Dubois was on a local radio station in my city last night for the drive home and she's all about self promotion, nothing more. I logged on to her web site with the intention of emailing and questioning her on why she can't help with Natalee's case. Upon clicking on the "contact" button, I received a generic notice that it was not a good time to contact Allison... that she was very, very busy and had no time for new cases or questions. I guess so. She's busy making her rounds on the radio station talk circuit. Doing what? Self promotion! She's legit because she says so! It's sad. Is "Crossing Over" with John Edward even on anymore? That show was like watching paint dry.
I am an alcoholic. I admit that. I have a good job and decent house, but when I get home, I choose to drink to block out voices I hear. I must state that the voices I hear are disturbing, never pleasant and persistent to the point of being overbearing. I believe these voices to be from the deceased. The messages are cryptic, hard to follow and almost impossible to be understood. I tried phyche therapy and nothing works to keep the voices at bay. I don't say this for you to believe me, but rather for you all to understand that nothing can be made of this communication. I can't solve crimes. I can't find missing people. I don't even know who these voices belong to. I just want help from someone who can tell me how to block out the voices. From day one when Natalee had missing, I have been obsessed with the case, logging on to news sites and discussion boards to hear the latest. From day one, every time I put serious thought toward this case, I hear a female voice say "maple syrup" and "down the hall, to the left." These two things mean something to Natalee. I'm sure of it. I'm also sure that these things can't help find her. Spirits have their own agenda. They have no connection to what is going on here in this life. The more I concentrate, the louder I hear it. Sometimes those phrases are accompanied by the words "right there," or something similar. Again, I'm not claiming to be helpful. I just want peace. Contact me with any help or suggestions---L6ozbud@yahoo.com

leilah,

Well, you seem pretty confident. Let's identify exactly what it is that you are predicting.

First: Natalee was drugged. You don't say by whom, but you later mention the guilt of "the three." Are we to take this to mean Joran and the two brothers are the ones who drugged her?

Second: Natalee's death was accidental, and a result of the drugs she was given. You seem to be definitively ruling out other causes of death, such as blunt trauma, strangulation, stabbing, drowning — or are you leaving this wide open and saying that if she was, for example, strangled, it can be linked back to the drugs (for example, she was drugged and trying to escape, and while Joran was trying to restrain her he accidentally strangled her)?

Third: Natalee was taken to the Memento Mori Funeral Home and Crematorium in Oranjestad and cremated for approximately $400 USD paid to a night crematory operator. Again, no mention of who took her there, but your earlier mention of "the three" and your later mention of Joran leads us to believe that you are saying that Joran and the two brothers took Natalee here. Correct? As a note, this particular hypothesis — Natalee being cremated at this funeral home — seems to be circulating the internet right now (as a simple Google search will reveal).

Without your clarifications as requested above, your predictions are rather incomplete (and generic, and not terribly original). Please fill in the gaps if you expect to be able to declare your "accuracy" someday. As a note, if you do fill in these gaps sufficiently, and if you are proven to be correct on the details, we will be right here promoting your accuracy. But, we want something in return for this.

We doubt that the full details of the crime will ever come out; but if they do, you seem confident that your accuracy will be confirmed. So, on the off chance that you are proven to be wrong about your predictions (for example, if it is proven that Natalee was not cremated, or that she was cremated somewhere other than the funeral home you mentioned), will you openly admit that your psychic powers are bullshit?

We await your response.

Jim,

In all honesty, what you describe seems to more accurately reflect the suffering of a schizophrenic than the powers of a psychic. Someone very close to us suffers from schizophrenia — he is medicated now, and doing fine. We strongly suggest that you seek medical assistance.

We are in no way trying to insult you or make fun of you — from personal experience, we know that schizophrenia is no laughing matter. Please: talk to a psychiatric professional. Not a therapist — therapy can help you cope with psychological problems, but will not treat or control actual medical conditions. There are a variety of medications available — for instance, Risperdal (Risperidone) or Zyprexa (Olanzapene). We can vouch for their potential efficacy. A psychiatric professional can help you find the one that will work for you.

Stay well.

Schitzophrenia is not my issue. Been there, done that. I wasn't offended by the suggestion. I have been thoroughly checked out mentally. It was the suggestion of a phychiatrist years ago that I was temporarily under a lot of stress, in need of sleep or just making up stories for attention. The voices I hear are trying to tell me things. I don't understand and the voices grow frustrated. Usually they go away or yield to the next. The voices come and go and my dreams are more vivid than TV sometimes. Some days are better than others. Voices I hear grow dormant during the daily organized chaos of my job. They pick up during my time alone. I can distinguish between male and female voices. Sometimes they offer a first name, sometimes the name of someone else.

Thanks for the input, I enjoy the site.

Well, Jim, we don't think we'll be able to convince you that you may be suffering from schizophrenia, nor is it our place to do so.

To our readers: what Jim has described is a textbook example of schizophrenia. If people are hearing voices or sounds (or seeing things no one else sees), there are established scientific explanations that should be explored before attributing these symptoms to something supernatural. Schizophrenia is a real phenomenon, and it is treatable. With the help of medical professionals (good ones — not those who will just say "it's stress"), people suffering from schizophrenia can get past the voices and get on with their lives.

As always, we recommend looking for natural explanations for things you observe with your natural senses, before you decide that something supernatural is going on.

Moderator of this board:
Get over yourself, you're being glib. Congratulations, you have an opinion---just as every other follower of this board does. As a teenager, I saw countless psychiatrists and board certified physicians. I have a cradle of support within my community. I have shared and do share my experiences with others in the field. For you to claim to be able to "diagnose" my personal experiences on this board is obscene. Prior to defending myself in this post, I've made two others. Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, you're not that good. I'm not delusional and I do not hallucinate. I can clearly distinguish between what I think and what I see in reality.
I thought as the moderator of this site that you would be more advanced and forward in your thought process regarding legitimate posts. I do not claim to physically "hear" people talking to me. Think for a second, communication within a cognitve manner, not delusion and certainly not out loud.
Also, I do not claim to see things noone else sees. I have vivid dreams that turn out to have valid meaning to people around me----I just choose not to speak of them. However, you claim (again, after only two generally non-descript posts) to be able to discern that the one of dozens of physicians I've seen, is not a "good" doctor?
I've spent the better part of my 32 years on this planet looking for "natural" causes to what burdens my privacy....... BUT THANK YOU FOR YOUR WEB MD DIAGNOSIS ANYWAY.
I'll move on to a more credible forum.

Jim,

First of all, we didn't claim to be able to diagnose you. What we said was:

To our readers: what Jim has described is a textbook example of schizophrenia.

And so it was. Do we also need to remind you that you came here and posted the following:

I just want help from someone who can tell me how to block out the voices.

...and...

Contact me with any help or suggestions---L6ozbud@yahoo.com

When we read the description that you provided to us, and the above statements, we felt that we should point out our personal experiences with schizophrenia. If you didn't want suggestions, you shouldn't have asked for any.

We also said that it wasn't our place to convince you that you could be suffering from schizophrenia, which is why we addressed the rest of our previous comment to our readers and not to you. The bottom line, Jim, is that we posted that last comment to make sure that our readers understand that there are perfectly rational explanations for what you are describing, despite your inability to accept that. That comment wasn't directed at you.

As for your specific claims: you seem to be thinking of schizophrenia as it exists in, say, A Beautiful Mind. That's not really what it's like (for the majority of schizophrenics). You don't have to see people and you don't have to think that you are really hearing physical voices in order to be schizophrenic. Our advice is to do your homework before opening your mouth and showing that you are uninformed. In addition, if you are not claiming to "hear" voices, then perhaps you should avoid using the word "hear" a half a dozen times when describing your experiences. It can be rather confusing to the reader, as you might imagine.

The truth is, Jim, we weren't trying to "diagnose" you; we were giving you the benefit of the doubt. Schizophrenia is a subject that hits very close to home around here; we know exactly how it works, and believe us, a schizophrenic often thinks their hallucinations (visual, auditory, or otherwise) are just as real as you think your "voices" are. Of course, all of that doesn't mean that you are schizophrenic.

If you're right that you are not a schizophrenic, then we apologize — you are clearly just a garden variety loon being suckered in by one or more of dozens of standard self-delusional techniques (as described in the Skeptics' Dictionary), and nothing more. Our guess is that you enjoy the feeling of righteous indignation that you are probably feeling right now for "putting us in our place," and that's why you engage in this kind of exchange — but that's only an off-the-cuff hypothesis based on your statements and our past experience.

If — some day — you actually come up with some form of evidence suggesting that you are not a self-delusional loon, and that your voices really do have a paranormal origin, please do share. Until then, we thank you for going away.

Alright you smart asses. I am very well educated and can even spell sometimes. I am not mentally ill. I am a 40 year old female married for many years. Very settled. My husband works nights, so I try to devote a lot of this time to "tuning" in the frequencies that are floating around.
In answer to your "goggle" comment, go back to Websleuths site on around June 3. I am known to have originated this idea. I was a long-time embalmer and funeral director until a few months ago. This cremating situation is nothing new; the mob relied on it for years. I have seen it done just for the money. To people that I never knew or could or would want to identify.
Per your questions: yes, at least Deepak and Joran took her there to the night crematory operator. This facility was opened last year with a little help with the environmental liscensure: Paul Van der Sloot. Payback is a fickle bitch.
Who drugged her? Joran did, but she did not die without other injury. She did not die from an overdose of anything but male hubris.
Where is she? No where and everywhere, the very sand they walk on.
You cannot destroy matter. You can only change its state. But it can never be put together again until another round comes and the particles that made Natalee up will become another being. Sad but very true.
If my sight is proven to be wrong, I will openly admit that I am a stupid bitch. I've never done that but I would do it for this. Sure. Mark Leilah down as truly committed and not looking for a prize in the bottom of a crackerjack box.
I'd bet that he (Joran) considered that "something bad happened" and that he "buried Natalee" to be true. She was dead and this wouldn't hurt her. This was burial, in his way of thinking.
She will be found to have no stab or bullet wounds.

CONTINUED: Her hyoidal bone will be too decomposed to prove or disprove strangulation. But her left temple will be split. No bullshit.
Remember guys: If you buy this ticket son, you have to take the ride.
P.S. Your cholesterol is clearing up and you should drink some whole milk. Right now. What's w/ this 2% crap? Have the guts to live and die your own way, as did Natalee. Yeah, she made a big mistake...but try to see it was her way.

And yes: this implies that I do not think she was completely reduced to ash. I do not see her cremains behind ground in the electric mixer that they use to turn them into "ashes". The actual operator, a man named Dan, stopped the process early because he was disturbed.
Her skull will be intact enough to identify a large depression in her left temple, such as would come from being kicked several times. She died eventually from a brain bleed.
Some of us don't want recognition. We wouldn't deserve it if we did receive it. If one trades a gift for fame or money, that gift ceases to be. The refusal to go public or accept awards is a good indicator that you are dealing with the real thing.

***Our guess is that you enjoy the feeling of righteous indignation that you are probably feeling right now for "putting us in our place,"***

Projecting your own feelings of triumph on me? This whole web site is dedicated to that very premise.

"Help from someone" and "contact me with any suggestions" were comments directed to this site's readers and not the condescending know-it-alls running the board.
You'll thank me to go away? Ok fat kid-bully, take your ball and go home. Retire the web site now while you still know it all.

By the way, I also want to inform you guys that I don't think that this whole situation was an accident. It was a purposefully thought out event on the paer of the three boys (men). I am not sure yet what they were after, but it wasn't just Natalee. It was something "spiritual" or in the realm of the occult.
I'm sure that you have seen Hitchcock's 'ROPE". Leopold and loeb killed Bobby Franks just to try to prove their superior intelligence. They thought that they could commit the "perfect crime". Didn't work...We always take something with us and leave something behind. Always.

Uh, Jim? You're the one who said you were taking your ball and going home. Remember? Just scroll up and you'll see what we mean.

Quoth Jim:

I'll move on to a more credible forum.

And are you seriously saying that you didn't expect us to respond to comments that you left on our site? C'mon, that's a pretty unbelievable position to take. But then again, you expect us to believe that you are hearing the voices of the dead talking about "maple syrup" as it pertains to the Natalee Holloway case...so there you are, then.

What went wrong, Jim? You used to like us. Do any of these ring a bell...?

I tend to agree with the cynics.

I wasn't offended by the suggestion.

Thanks for the input, I enjoy the site.

After "enjoying" our debunking of other people's bullshit psychic claims, you suddenly turned on us when we debunked your bullshit psychic claims. We've seen this far too many times to count, Jim — the old "Those silly beliefs are just plain silly, but my silly beliefs are right" gambit. It's nothing new, and there's nothing terribly clever about it. Everyone from the religiosos to the quacks to the psychics and any other TrooBleevers™ makes this same claim. As always, we'll ask: where do you draw the line, and why? Which silly beliefs (unsupported by any evidence or repeated objective observation) are downright idiotic, and which ones are "obviously" true? In your case, this dichotomy is even more unbelievable: if you claim to hear the voices of the dead, why on earth would you doubt someone else's claim (like Allison DuBois') that they hear the voices of the dead? Wow. That's so hypocritical we may need to invent a new word to describe it, 'cause "hypocritical" doesn't quite cover it.

If you have anything constructive to say, you are welcome to do so. Otherwise, please follow through on your promise to go somewhere else. If you choose to follow neither of the above approaches, then please read our comment policy before posting again.

I apologize for stating that this discussion board is not credible. It is a cynic board, therefore very credible in what it actually is. I respect the site and I'm still thankful for the initial input from your original response. I wasn't offended by the initial suggestion that I was suffering from schizophrenia. I did get offended when you were persistent in stating that I was-----you stated for the other board readers that I was describing "textbook" schizophrenia.
I do enjoy this site and will continue to check in and read now and then-----I just will not post.

I never claimed that "maple syrup" pertained to the Natalee Holloway case. I said it was my belief that the aforementioned words/phrases pertained to Natalee Holloway. Maybe maple syrup has something to do with an inside joke Natalee shares with a friend or loved one, maybe something else. Big difference. I was also clear in stating that I didn't believe that I had the ability to solve crimes or find missing people. I don't hear voices, that was a poor choice of words. I lack the vocabulary to describe to people what I experience and I get frustrated with people claiming to know what I experience after just a brief glimpse. I know it's not schizophrenia and I trust the medical opinions of the nine doctors in 17 years who back up my belief. You think otherwise. For this board, that's ok.
I enjoy the cynic's site because I believe anyone truly blessed with a "medium-like" gift can not channel that gift for specific purposes-----like solving missing persons cases. As yourself and your readers point out, why don't these mediums start solving crimes? I agree. I think I have a gift of sorts, but don't want it. I want the thoughts/feelings to go away-------again, please don't analyze my words, I can't describe what I have in my head.
I take full responsibility for the ire I have drawn. I believe in ghosts, but not UFO's. I know I am a hypocrite, but that's my right. You can call me a loon again, that's your right.

I do know that Joran was scheduled to be moving to St Augustine Florida this fall. He had chosen to accept a scholarship from Flagler College, named for the famous Henry Flagler. Flagler built the railroad connection to the keys from the mainland. He was a massive developer. He couldn't keep a wife because they died and one hung herself. In a section of Flagler College that is now a dormitory. It is lush, lush, lush. I would rather be there any day than in Aruba. Also, a hurricane destroyed the overseas railroad, leaving only the 7-mile bridge section.
I feel that Joran will probably still get to go there someday to school. Lucky little shit.

leilah,

Wait a minute. What the heck did we say that caused you to get all defensive in your first reply? We've been rightfully called smart asses before, but in this case all we did was ask you some legitimate questions that we had after reading your initial comments. We didn't even insult you. We never implied anything about your spelling or your intelligence, and we never said that you were mentally ill. At least wait until we are insulting you before you cry foul.

We'd like to first address some of your general comments, as well as some other items not related to the Natalee Holloway case. After that, we will get to the main issue. All blockquotes below are yours, for the sake of clarity.

In answer to your "goggle" comment, go back to Websleuths site on around June 3. I am known to have originated this idea.

Actually, the pages that we were looking at did not attribute the idea to you (or at least, we didn't see any such connection). We're not saying that you are wrong (perhaps the pages in question were wrong), but the simple fact is that we saw this idea attributed to someone else. According to websleuths, it was one "leann coburn" who started this idea on that particular forum. Of course, you might well be that person, but there is no way for us to know that. What's more, even if that person is you, the idea that Natalee has been cremated isn't a new one. However, this is all beside the point. It is the specific details that we are interested in, and which you have since provided.

I was a long-time embalmer and funeral director until a few months ago. This cremating situation is nothing new; the mob relied on it for years. I have seen it done just for the money. To people that I never knew or could or would want to identify.

Um, doesn't that qualify you as being an accessory to murder after the fact? If you've "seen" this done, even if you can't identify the person, you should be telling the authorities about it. Seriously. Please. If you want to do a good deed, that would be a good way to start.

Some of us don't want recognition. We wouldn't deserve it if we did receive it. If one trades a gift for fame or money, that gift ceases to be. The refusal to go public or accept awards is a good indicator that you are dealing with the real thing.

Sorry, but in our experience, the refusal to accept rewards in exchange for "psychic" abilities is not an indicator that the practitioner is for real. What it generally says to us is that the practitioner isn't one of the breed of money-grubbing psychics, but rather of the self-delusional variety. We've touched on this many times before in various Rants and comments. All it means is that you aren't greedy; it doesn't in any way mean that you are a genuine psychic.

In addition, sorry to burst your bubble, but...you did go public. We're not just talking about our site; you also mentioned that the crematorium hypothesis was yours, which means you've shared it elsewhere. So, although we don't agree with your statement that the refusal to go public or accept rewards denotes actual psychic abilities, if we assume that you believe it, then you have just gone and caught yourself in your own line of fire.

What's w/ this 2% crap? Have the guts to live and die your own way, as did Natalee. Yeah, she made a big mistake...but try to see it was her way.

What? If you want to know where our name came from, check our FAQ. It's nothing spectacular, but you are welcome to read it. And if we're reading you right, you seem to think that our anonymity somehow detracts from our reasoning or the validity of our thoughts. We choose anonymity for various reasons, not the least of which is that there are plenty of lunatics out there who really dislike people who say things like "There is no god." So, for that and for many other reasons, we choose to be anonymous. Many bloggers do the same. What does that have to do with having "the guts to live and die" our own way? Further, what does that have to do with how Natalee lived? And how did she "die her own way"? We're pretty confused by your statements here, but suffice it to say that we certainly do live in our own ways, and we doubt Natalee was too thrilled about dying the way she did.

If my sight is proven to be wrong, I will openly admit that I am a stupid bitch. I've never done that but I would do it for this. Sure. Mark Leilah down as truly committed and not looking for a prize in the bottom of a crackerjack box.

First of all, we never asked you to say that you were a stupid bitch. Second of all, we don't want you to say that. We very specifically asked you to admit something else — that your psychic powers are bullshit. There is a big difference here. We are asking you to admit that you are not in communication with any supernatural forces or entities, while you are offering merely to insult yourself. We're only interested in the former.

P.S. Your cholesterol is clearing up and you should drink some whole milk. Right now.

Sorry, but that's about as blatant a miss as we can imagine. First of all, there are more than one of us here, so it isn't clear who you are talking about. That said, one of our members just had his bloodwork done a week ago. As always, his cholesterol was well below the danger line. So, he has nothing to clear up. Our other members have all had physicals in the past year, and not a single one of us has ever had anything even close to high cholesterol.

So how do you explain this complete miss? We're just curious.

—•—

Now let's get to the specific details you offer regarding the Holloway case, the details we requested. We are looking for you to confirm our understanding of your predictions, so please let us know if we've misrepresented any of them.

First: Natalee was drugged. You have now filled in the detail that Joran was the one who drugged her. We take this to mean that he (and not anyone else) administered the drugs to Natalee. (As a note, for our money, that's a safe bet.)

Second: Natalee's death was accidental, and a result of the drugs she was given. You have filled in the details that it wasn't the drugs that killed her (again, safe bet), but that she died from internal hemorrhaging. You mention that she was kicked several times in the left temple, which we take to be the cause of the hemorrhage. You rule out stabbing and shooting, but not strangulation. So, this means that she was kicked in the left temple and may or may not have been strangled, but she was not shot or stabbed. Right? Again, you have chosen two safe bets for cause of death, but that's okay. You go on to note that Natalee's death was a result of some kind of foray into the occult. That means that this wasn't a date rape gone bad, or a drunken fall onto a rock. However, the occult experiment wasn't supposed to kill her, you must be saying, since her actual death was "accidental." So, they meant to harm her in the pursuit of occult phenomena, but they didn't mean to kill her. Again, please confirm or correct our understanding here.

Third: Natalee was taken to the Memento Mori Funeral Home and Crematorium in Oranjestad and cremated for approximately $400 USD paid to a night crematory operator. You have filled in the details that Deepak and Joran (and possibly others) took Natalee to the funeral home, and that the person who performed the cremation was named Dan.

In addition to our questions, you were kind enough to provide other details. For example, you seem to be saying that Natalee's remains will be found. Are we correct about that? You mention that, when they are found, it will be seen that her cremation was not completed (due to the aborted cremation by Dan, Dan, the Crematorium Man). Her skull, you say, will be intact enough to identify not only a large depression in the left temple, but also a split in the skull at that location. Her bones will not show any signs of stab or bullet wounds, and her hyoidal bone will not show signs of strangulation.

If the above paragraphs truly and correctly capture your predictions, then we commend you for providing this level of detail. We also suspect that this will be your undoing, but hey, we've been wrong before.

One further question we still have in addition to your confirmation of the above: where (and, if possible, when) are Natalee's remains going to be found? You say in one post:

Where is she? No where and everywhere, the very sand they walk on.

If her cremation had been complete, we would understand that there may be no "place" for her remains to be found. However, given your statements about the nature of her remains, we have to ask where they will be found. Please let us know.

Thanks again for the details. You have been the only person brave enough to provide any, and we truly commend you for this. We await your confirmation of our interpretation.

I dont think she is alive, sorry.
She was taken by two men in an old green truck (late 80s to early 90s), with the cab missing. One of the men has black hair and a mustache, which is not groomed very well. he wears a gray-looking bandana/hat that seems to be a camuflage-style.
I see in the back of the truck some white bags; they look like sand or cement... these two men dropped her off about 5 miles from the nearest city.

Leilah, I believe your story almost entirely, but I "see" one slight difference. Joran's drugs were mere water pills..... there was a second drugger in the grassy knoll. Joran is a patsy.

Check! You guys are great. Check the e-mail address I have here and compare it to the one attributed to "leann coburn" on websleuths. You will find that we are one and the same.
I also use many names on-line because I too want some privacy. But you could e-mail me any day and I will tell you guys what my name is, what I do and where I live.
I have never been an accesory to anything, even "after the fact". But funeral homes are like echo chambers. Gossip gets around, but it doesn't get out. If it did, we'd all lose our jobs. When you work for a long time for one of these mega-corporations, you learn more and more with time. Extremely secretive. I knew of one occassion in which we cremated a body immeadiately and it was the wrong one.

So the other "correct" body was cremated just in time for the waiting family. They had to chill them first. No one discussed this me but I know that this is a fine of at least $25,000 in each case. So common. We have many times used our facilities illegally to cremate the pets of customers. That'll get you closed down. And yes...I work for the most disgraceful of all. SCI out of Texas. Look at their stock price now compared to several years ago. They are swimming in hock and will hire anyone to work downstairs and keep their mouths shut.

So, now for your questions. Where is Natalee? Natalee's fat burned off as did the amino acids, dessicating her flesh. I would say she needed another 45 minutes to completely cremate. So the bones of the body would be dried out and easy to break up with a hammer or some such. They are on the southern end of the island and may not be found. Her skull shows massive damage to the left temple. It survived enough to be identified. Joran has possession of her teeth somewhere. When I say their was a ritualistic twist to her death, I still mean that they PURPOSELY killed her.
Drugged and bound and then bound and kicked repeatedly in the skull.
Like I said, go ahead and go for the whole milk. Your cholesterol is fine (as a group). One of you had a test last week and they are fine. Just poking fun of the 2% deal, no mischief intended.
I don't believe in a god other than the atom. Positive and negative, proton, electron. Love Stephen Hawkins.
Any other comments will be responded to, Thank you for making this available.
Day sleeper, so goodnight good folks.

As I was lying in bed, I realized something was happening. Something important. Right in front of the wrecked u2 submarine, her fibula has just washed up. It is very delicate, but still identifiable for what it is. It is now a shale gray color and may blend in with the rocks. It is her right fibula. Later today, some metacarpals should be arriving very near there. Bits and pieces.
No, Natalee does not "talk" to me. Jung and that nasty little uWm. Reich taught us about the shared consciousness and the power of tattwas or symbols. There is no god other than the black hole.
I am not in touch with anything supernatural. I encourage all people to try to "tune in" to the antenna in their head. LOL Not easy to do. Takes a long time. But possible when you limit yourself to one thought only, to one purpose. I am in the position to do this as are many. Natalee "chose" to "make a big mistake" when she went outside the rules. But yes, it was "her way" because she opened the door to begin with.

This decision is one of fate, which is most random. The saying comes from Layne Staley of Alice in Chains (deceased from heroin od) in a song he wrote about his best friend Andy Wood of Mother Love Bone. "So I made a big mistake; but try to see it was my way." I think we live every day, every second, with the spectre of death. We (our elements) will be recycled but the ego is an illusion. So enjoy it while you can, wise people.
Every man and every woman is a star. Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law.

leilah,

We are noticing that some of your predictions have become, for lack of a better word, dynamic. This is not something that we will just overlook. For example, you originally said:

Natalee died accidentally but she was drugged.

Now you have stated:

When I say their was a ritualistic twist to her death, I still mean that they PURPOSELY killed her. Drugged and bound and then bound and kicked repeatedly in the skull.

These two statements directly contradict one another. In this case, we will go with your latter statement, but please be mindful of any future contradictions. Please also be aware that by going with your more recent statement, your previous statement that Natalee's death was accidental will no longer score a hit should it be proven that her death was, in fact, an accident.

This brings us to our next important point — differentiating a hit from a miss. We will use your cholesterol statements just as an example. You originally said the following:

P.S. Your cholesterol is clearing up and you should drink some whole milk. Right now.

This statement clearly implies that one or more of the Two Percent Company has or had high cholesterol which is now on the way down. When we informed you that none of our members has ever had high cholesterol, that all of our members have a long history of low and steady cholesterol readings, and that one of our members had bloodwork done last week confirming these facts, you stated the following:

Like I said, go ahead and go for the whole milk. Your cholesterol is fine (as a group). One of you had a test last week and they are fine.

Sorry, but that's not what you said. There will be no subjective validation from us. If you get a hit, you will have to earn it. This statement about cholesterol does not earn a hit.

—•—

Now let's get back to the revised details you offer regarding the Holloway case. The following should accurately represent your predictions, and we ask for clear corrections if we have misstated anything.

Natalee was drugged. Joran (and not anyone else) was the one who administered the drugs to Natalee.

Natalee's death was not accidental — she was killed intentionally. It wasn't the drugs that killed her, she died from hemorrhaging in her brain. She was bound and kicked repeatedly in the left temple, which was the cause of the brain hemorrhage. She may or may not have been strangled, but strangulation was not the cause of death. In addition, she was not shot or stabbed at all.

Natalee's death was a result of some kind of foray into the occult on the part of Joran. So, her death was not due to a date rape gone bad, or a drunken fall onto a rock, or even just pure psychopathic rage. The occult experiment was intended to kill her, perhaps as a sacrifice or something similar.

Joran, Deepak, and possibly others took Natalee to the Memento Mori Funeral Home and Crematorium in Oranjestad and cremated her remains for approximately $400 USD paid to a night crematory operator named Dan. Natalee's cremation was not completed, it was aborted about 45 minutes early by Dan.

The remains that could be broken up into smaller pieces were disposed of on the south side of the island, and may not be found. However, because her cremation was not complete, some of Natalee's remains will be found intact, including at least her skull, her right fibula, her teeth, her hyoidal bone, and some fragmented metacarpals. When found, her skull will be intact enough to identify not only a large depression in the left temple, but also a fracture in the skull at that location. Her bones will not show any signs of stab or bullet wounds, and her hyoidal bone will not show signs of strangulation. In addition, Natalee's right fibula and some fragmented metacarpals washed up on the shore of Aruba on August 4, 2005. Finally, Joran has possession of her teeth. All of these bones will be found and identified as Natalee's.

Lastly, it is worth taking a closer look at one of your statements:

Right in front of the wrecked u2 submarine, her fibula has just washed up. It is very delicate, but still identifiable for what it is. It is now a shale gray color and may blend in with the rocks. It is her right fibula. Later today, some metacarpals should be arriving very near there. Bits and pieces.

Since one of our members is an avid SCUBA diver who has been to Aruba, your mention of a wrecked WWII German submarine off the coast of Aruba didn't ring true. We looked into this, and we have been unable to find any mention of such a wreck near Aruba, despite checking a list of Aruba's dive sites and uboat.net which lists the final resting places of all known WWII German U-boats. Do you believe it is possible that you are mistaken about this wreck?

From solstice:

I dont think she is alive, sorry.
She was taken by two men in an old green truck (late 80s to early 90s), with the cab missing. One of the men has black hair and a mustache, which is not groomed very well. he wears a gray-looking bandana/hat that seems to be a camuflage-style.
I see in the back of the truck some white bags; they look like sand or cement... these two men dropped her off about 5 miles from the nearest city.

...and that's the wonderful thing about psychics — they each have a completely different "true story" to tell about the same event.

solstice,

Don't be sorry to us — we don't think she's alive, either. It's sad, but after all this time, the likelihood that she is still alive is slim to none, and we just saw Slim getting his ass kicked outside of town.

We do have a few questions, though. When you say that these two men "dropped her off," do you mean they dropped off her remains? Also, Aruba is a small island. Five miles from a city covers quite a bit of it. Do you have anything more specific to go on? For example, which city, which direction from the city, or similar detail? You know, something that might actually help someone to locate something? We're also wondering how she died. Finally, will her remains be found?

Most notably, it sounds like you are ruling out the involvement of Joran, his two buddies, and everyone else that has been detained or questioned thus far. Is this correct?

Like many of the other above predictions, we'll consider yours to be incomplete until we see these additional details.

Fan-man,

When you get a chance, I'd like to share my "Magic Pill" theory with you. It's definitive proof that the CIA and the Mob were in on Natalee's disappearance! Oh, and Michael Jackson, too.

To satisfy my own curiosity I have a question or three for our posting psychics. First, how do you get the "facts" of this case to come to you? Do you look at a picture of Natalee or just squint real hard and think of what you already know about the case? Do the facts of only high profile cases come to you, or do you have mental files for all of the thousands of people wrongfully killed each day? If nobody has found Natalee's remains, then nobody but the guilty have seen them----is it the sub-conscious mind of the guilty "showing" you what happend or satellite TV? If it's the spirit of Natalee showing you these clues, can't you just ask her to cut the Colonel Mustard bullshit and give you some mapping coordinates of her location?
I think all self proclaimed psychics are liars. Shit just pops into your head? That would be thoughts and ideas. YOUR thoughts. YOUR ideas. I sit here and disagree with what you believe. You will say "believe what you want," and I'll say the same. Perception is reality. If you perceive something as true, it is. C'mon, having this gift isn't about seeing what others can not, it's about convincing others that you do. Reality is in your head and it's different for everyone. You believe you have a gift because you're more open to it. It's your personality. It's your artsy fartsy personality. Has to be, right? It's right brain shit. I'm a hard numbers guy, left brain all the way. Somebody, prove something to me. I dare you. Not to everyone..... prove it to me.

Fan-man, you're killin' me here. Perception is NOT reality, if you believe that get a job in advertising or PR. Reality is reality, and there's only one.

However, perception is all we have to work with and colors everything we believe and every action we take. That's why we have hundreds of religions, political parties, and styles of shoes. Just because I think your shoes are ugly doesn't make you believe it.

Saying reality is subjective is how the nutbags of the world justify their questionable behavior. Be a hard numbers guy, I'll like you better. And the reality is that my opinion is the only one that counts. (evil grin)

I like you Shawn McCormick!
You said that perception is not reality, but that it is all we have to work with and that it's why we have hundreds of religions, political parties and styles of shoes. Political parties and shoe styles are choices in reality, not reality itself. Religion is reality, one way or another. That said, let me pose a religious question to you:
In Iraq today, American soldiers are being killed by suicide bombers. On September 11th 2001, thousands of Americans were killed by suicide terrorists. The same thing just happend in London on their buses and subways. The suicide bombers believe they are serving their version of God and preserving their reservation in their version of heaven. WE believe that these men are evil and that OUR God will deal with their evil deeds.
Who is right? If individuals pledge 100% of their faith in one religion, then everybody else who doesn't believe the same is wrong and therefore going to hell. Christianity teaches that our God has mercy on children because they are ignorant, but ultimately we're all "God's children." If the suicide bombers and the like are raised in a culture and never afforded the opportunity to learn a different way, then wouldn't Christians view them as ignorant? By that rationale, God will spare their soles and welcome them into the gates of your heaven. Ready to spend eternity with those filthy terrorists?
Most psychics are not religious people because the practice relies too heavily on the psychic's version of science. Do you believe in God? There's no proof that a God exists, afterall. Consequently, reviewing this site and others like it, I see no proof that any psychic is anything but full of shit. This creates an interesting dilemma. That's my point. Many versions of reality with no proof to back any of it up. People only perceive when there isn't scientific fact to show them otherwise. If I stick my finger in a candle flame, it will get burned. That's reality. Proven reality. If I pledge my faith to the Lord Jesus Christ, I will go to heaven. Prove it. Millions of people on this planet will agree with that last comment. They will say it is fact. Prove it or prove it wrong because like it or not, religion is reality, baby.

Religion is reality? Religion and science are two sides of the same coin. Sisters. And with time, they come closer together. I have "tested the spirits" in every way that jesus said to. My family is very religious and I respect all views.
When I was young, I saw through a glass darkly. When I grew up, I put away childish things. However, if people didn't have a need for faith or for marriage or for play, then it wouldn't exist. Right, fan-man?

SORRY GUYS. CAN'T ANSWER ALL YOUR QUESTIONS RIGHT NOW. COOKING DINNER. YOU ARE RIGHT AND I AM WRONG. I THINK THAT THERE IS A WWII SHIP THAT WAS SCUTTLED OR WRECKED IN AN INCIDENT WITH A GERMAN SUBMARINE IN WWII. IT IS SOMEWHERE TO THE FIVE ON A WATCH HAND OFF THE EAST COAST OF ARUBA. I DON'T CLAIM TO KNOW EVERY THING FOR SURE. I HAVE NO TECHNIQUE SO I AM ALSO ENJOYING YOUR INPUT AS WELL.

See, I do believe that my belief or Natalee's partial cremation fits in well with the information on what was seen dumped. She would have had to be taken to the landfill and dumped. The skull was taken away and Joran has her teeth or knows where they are.
Also, Deepak's mom showed a news crew around her humble house at the beginning of this case. She showed the family Hindu shrine, Ganesh and all. She said that the entire family prayed there together every morning. Guess what? Hindus(religion!!!) don't eat meat and certainly not steak.
Deepak's mom was recently fired from her job at a popular STEAKHOUSE. Give me a break, Aruba.
Sorry, O/T. But there's your family that "prays together, stays together".

solstice,

Don't be sorry to us — we don't think she's alive, either. It's sad, but after all this time, the likelihood that she is still alive is slim to none, and we just saw Slim getting his ass kicked outside of town.

We do have a few questions, though. When you say that these two men "dropped her off," do you mean they dropped off her remains? Also, Aruba is a small island. Five miles from a city covers quite a bit of it. Do you have anything more specific to go on? For example, which city, which direction from the city, or similar detail? You know, something that might actually help someone to locate something? We're also wondering how she died. Finally, will her remains be found?

Most notably, it sounds like you are ruling out the involvement of Joran, his two buddies, and everyone else that has been detained or questioned thus far. Is this correct?

Not ruling out anyone, but what I am saying is the party invalved is of the descriptions I provided.
I am most interested in the truck, to be honest - do any of the detainees have one that fits that description?

It appeared as if the "remains" were dropped off, because there was clearly no one getting back up off the sand.
I mentioned some sacks in the back of the truck, that looks like they are used for sand/salt or cement, or something of that sort you that one would find on someone who works in construction or as a contracter. If the bags are present or not, basicly the impression points to someone who is into that kind of work.

If I am wrong, then I am wrong and the search team is no better off... however, do many people on a small island drive green late 80s/early 90s trucks and carry around supplies like that?

Fanman you've got a contradiction in your premise. Religion is reality? Which one? Nope, just another choice in perceptions like political parties. I'll use your example to illustrate what I mean.

In Iraq today, American soldiers are being killed by suicide bombers. On September 11th 2001, thousands of Americans were killed by suicide terrorists. The same thing just happend in London on their buses and subways. The suicide bombers believe they are serving their version of God and preserving their reservation in their version of heaven.

Perception: Kill the heathens, please your diety, get reward after death.

Reality: Men choose to kill themselves and others for religious motivations. They are now dead, so are others.

Everything else is speculation. None of it is provable or disprovable.

WE believe that these men are evil and that OUR God will deal with their evil deeds.

Watch it with the WE. The only supernatural being I believe in is Santa. His response to this will be a wicked load of coal. So it is written.

As for dealing with them, here's the reality. MEN will find SOME of them and kill or capture them. Then, religious groups will claim it was their god that made it happen. My perception? I say it was Santa. He knows when you are sleeping.. he knows when you're awake. And he knows where your chimney, and therefore YOU, are.

With all due respect, the rest of your post is fluff. If psychics are religious and if any religion is better or worse doesn't influence reality one bit.

omg, Shawn I love that post!

Yeah, psychic and "religion" are not bed partners... I'm an agnoistic and at least claim to be psychic, so there you go hehe
Now, I must be off to find Santa a worthy sacrifice, because that skank Toothfaery deserves her come-uppins :p

Religion is faith. Faith is reality.
Dig deeper Shawn. There is no contradiction in what I stated. Faith is reality for those so convicted to their beliefs. Yes, the reality of suicide bombings is that the bomber is dead and so are others. However, if the bomber has "pleased his diety" and is now being rewarded after death, that is reality too. Prove to me that's not happend. Prove it's not real.

Politics and shoes are choices driven by preference. Religion is faith. Yes, you can prefer one religion over another, but your preference is based on faith. I'm a Republican (more like a Truman Democrat) and I can tell you why. I choose my shoes based on a meld of looks and comfort.
Sorry to lump you in with the "we" comment. I don't include myself in the "we" comment either. I was brought up in the Methodist church. As an adult, I question. The only thing that I know for sure is that I don't know everything there is to know.
My post was not fluff. I was trying to be thought provoking. Maybe it wasn't. Santa Clause is fluff my man. I thought you had more than that.

Leilah----Marriage and play time are real whether you need it or not. I have a wife and boat to prove it. I can't show you proof of faith, but that doesn't mean it's not real. Prove to me it's not. If it exists, then it's real. Right? Faith exists.... that's why I continue to buy Cincinnati Bengals season tickets after 15 years of losing.

I like everyone's thought provoking posts...

minor correction---- I meant to say that I can not "physically" show proof of faith.

Alright Fan, let's go around again before the boys at 2% get cranky about us hogging their space.

You make the argument that politics and shoes are a choice. Religion is not, because it's based on faith. And if I extend your comments a bit, you imply that you get no choice in what you have faith in. With regards to religion, most are INDOCTRINATED from birth, I know I was. You grow up with the faith, and you're INDOCTRINATED not to question it. Faith was forced on you. Some examine their faith later and CHOOSE to accept it, and other CHOOSE to reject it, like I did. So faith isn't reality, it's a choice. Like politics.

Here, a more real world example. When I was a boy my parents divorced. I had FAITH in my parents to continue to be parents and remain involved in my life. I say FAITH because I had no proof, I simply believed. My mother has always been there, my father found dealing with his kids inconvenient. I no longer have faith in him, because he failed me repeatedly. My brother, who had the same experiences, still has faith in my father to be a father. We chose differently on the same very real situation.

As for the suicide bomber and his "reality" of a life after death. Sorry. No. Let me put it this way, suppose we could get definitive proof that one of the three following items are true. (I'll ignore the how, let's just suppose with both accept the source as reliable). A) there is a heaven and hell after death. B)We all get reincarnated indefinitely. C) Death if final. Now, the suicide bomber firmly believes option A. You believe option B. I believe option C. Who is right? Hard to say. But his BELIEF doesn't influence the reality one bit does it? Nor does ours. If he's wrong, he's either reincarnated, or gone forever, no matter what he believed. Perception only creates a framework for your actions. Those actions help create reality, along with the laws of physics.

When I called the rest fluff, I wasn't referring to the content itself, I know you were trying to be thought provoking. I was saying it was fluff with regards to the core discussion of perception = reality vs. reality = reality. Sorry, I wasn't clear.

Last item. I mentioned Santa for a very specific reason, and to illustrate a very specifc point without the clutter of words. If you've missed the point, there's very little I can do, because explaining it defeats the purpose. It's like explaining a joke, it loses something in translation.

Not that I believe in supernatural events but I did some u boat snooping. The Antilla was a german vessel. 1940, Germany officially went to war against Holland and Aruba's Dutch powers demanded the surrender of the Antilla. But the captain of the Antilla went about sabotaging his ship - overheating the boilers, opening valves, closing drains and, finally, he blasted a hole in the side of his freighter. The ship sunk in less than 60 feet of water; the mast and chimney still emerging from the water. Lying on a bed of superb white sand, not far away from the coast and protected from the swell, the Antilla is a golden wreck for today's divers, a real war treasure. In the immense hull, the light plays through the portholes. Swarms of silversides fill the cargo hulls, creating elaborate circular forms as they pulsate in unison before your eyes.

Shawn--- Touche! Excellent points. These conversations are better is person though, wouldn't you agree? Many different shades of reality, maybe? I think everyone exists in their own reality to an extent. Sometimes, groups of people, communities and even countries share common elements of the same reality. Believe it or not, I know a really funny joke about the difference between perception and reality, but it's not for this board! You are right, we are off task.
I'll let the psychics get back to work......

Shawn, you really need to up your meds.

abby,

You are correct about the Antilla. It is not a U-boat, but it does have a WWII connection as it was scuttled in 1940 when Germany went to war with Holland. The text you quoted is also right about the Antilla — it is an excellent dive site, and the silversides can be awesome. I know the wreck well. It sits off the extreme west coast of Aruba, just offshore at Palm Beach, near the Marriott and numerous other hotels.

As the news has reported, the Marriott beach has been and continues to be searched pretty thoroughly. No word of bones yet.

At the risk of pulling this thread even further off the topic (that would be psychic predictions about Natalee Holloway, in case you forgot), we wanted to mention a few things.

Rachel said:

Shawn, you really need to up your meds.

Huh? We certainly understand insults, since we use them fairly often, and we get what your comment is supposed to suggest, but we can't figure out why you would direct this statement to Shawn. As far as we're concerned, Shawn is getting this very, very right.

As Shawn nicely stated in regard to the suicide bomber example:

As for the suicide bomber and his "reality" of a life after death. Sorry. No. Let me put it this way, suppose we could get definitive proof that one of the three following items are true. (I'll ignore the how, let's just suppose with both accept the source as reliable). A) there is a heaven and hell after death. B)We all get reincarnated indefinitely. C) Death [is] final. Now, the suicide bomber firmly believes option A. You believe option B. I believe option C. Who is right? Hard to say. But his BELIEF doesn't influence the reality one bit does it? Nor does ours. If he's wrong, he's either reincarnated, or gone forever, no matter what he believed. Perception only creates a framework for your actions. Those actions help create reality, along with the laws of physics.

Exactly, Shawn. If the suicide bomber detonates himself, the reality is that he has bombed some place, and that some people are dead. The bomber's perception is that he did "god's will," and that he will go to heaven or receive some other divine reward. The perception of some other people is that the bomber flouted "god's will," and will burn in hell or receive some other divine punishment. Still other people will perceive that the bomber was a fucking lunatic zealot who didn't have the decency to just kill himself without taking out half a city block. (It shouldn't be too hard to figure out which camp we fall into.) But despite all these perceptions, none of them actually shape or constitute reality in any way.

As soon as we leave the comfy and narrow confines of a single person's mind, the statement that "perception is reality" is completely and unequivocally false. Reality is reality, and nothing else qualifies. People can believe and perceive whatever they want to, but that has no direct impact on reality whatsoever. Every person in the world could believe with all their might that we have small gnomes living in our asses, but if in reality we really don't play host to ass gnomes, that widespread belief in no way changes that fact. Period.

These arguments can be made without any assumptions about what constitutes reality — they are correct statements regardless of which of the above perceptions about the bomber (or the ass gnomes) are, in fact, accurate. If we're willing to make some basic assumptions about reality, we can take this line of reasoning even further.

In coexisting with other inhabitants of our physical, natural world, we have an implied understanding that there is a basic, standard, objective reality that governs us all. Even people who may not realize that they have this understanding still share it. Cutting edge speculative physics aside, we all agree to accept that there are certain standard operating procedures for the real world. By starting our cars in the morning, we are agreeing that the internal combustion engine makes sense, actually exists, and will work the way we all take it for granted that it does work. When we throw a baseball to the first baseman, we agree that putting the ball into a specific trajectory at a specific velocity will make it reach the first baseman so he can catch it. By simply engaging in such acts, we are all implicitly declaring that we share a basic understanding of reality.

So no matter what a person's stated perceptions or beliefs, simply by interacting with other people and things in a commonplace, everyday manner, they are admitting that reality is reality. Verus est verus, folks.

Maybe it isn't Shawn who needs to up his meds.

I'm not disagreeing with Shawn or the recap by 2%. I believe the two to be reinforcing what everybody already knows: that reality is reality. Physical reality that can be seen and scientifically proved. Psychics are all bullshitters. I'm still waiting to be proven wrong----as are the other cynics that read this board.
I like to deal in shades of gray though. What I was semi-arguing with Shawn about is reality that can not be proven within the confines of a scientific lab. I believe that if something exists, it is real. Faith exists. I know, I have it. What I choose to have faith in may ultimately be proven complete bullshit one day, but for now it is my faith and that faith is real.
An individual's perceptions are real. The content may not be, but the perceptions are. Hence my comparison: Perception is reality.
Now seriously, will a psychic please step forward and prove something?!

Some of you expect psychic BS, but it seems that those people are capable of generating their own rather well ;)

I read the news article a bit and most of the people detained were people who were on the same trip as the girl.
My impression is that it is not someone who was in her group that had done the actually murder; I lean more toward someone had saw an oportunity to grab a drunk girl that was alone.
Of course, this is also logic, because bubbley blond ladies who drink too much are easy targets.

2%: Ass gnomes... snicker. And thank you for the bit about getting outside the confines of your own mind. That was the part I wasn't able to put into words.

Fan-man: Heh, they said ass gnomes. Chuckle. Sorry, sorry.

A lady I know who works at a university in Ohio, makes a habit of saying the following, often in meetings where she shouldn't, "Words have meanings, you know." Reality has one specific meaning, you keep trying to reinterpret it to mean something else.

Is faith real, yes. Is perception itself real, yes. Does perception and faith SEEM like reality to people without a solid grasp, absolutely. In fact, you could argue, quite rightly and with many examples in this thread, that most psychics are simply people who mistake what goes on their head (perception) with what's actually happening in the world (reality). (See how I tied this all back to Natalee, ain't I brilliant).

What it comes down to is that your math is bad. You're saying A=B, and A=C, therefore B=C. The problem is that's not right. Perception is a subset of reality, not an equal. Therefore, A is a subset of B, but B is not a subset of A. A is wholly contained within B. I wish I could draw a picture. 8x10 glossies with circles and arrows and a description on the back.

Answer this:
"What is it like to be a cup of water of mass M?"

You can't!
BUT you know that if you accelerate that cup of water at rate A there will be a reaction force
MA to overcome. What the hell is pushing back? The shit of the universe that causally necessitates
F= MA, not some stupid machine enforcing F = MA 'ness on us!

I am extremely frustrated that everyone continually dances around this fire and
fails time and time again to see it.

I'll say it again: The same causal necessites that make the universe behave as if F = MA applies
to the cup of water are also determining what it is like to be that cup of water! The same ones
that determine what it is like to be human (phenomenal consciousness) or anything else.

'Everything' means everything, right? Well take it from me - it's only 50% of everything and no amount of ass gnomes will ever get you to the other 50%.
Take a look at the explanatory side of physics, not the descriptive side.....

Oh, and yeah.... anal dwelling gnomes have kidnapped Natalee Holloway.

Hey Beavis, er, I mean Shawn:

The apparent invisibility and solipsistic presentation of phenomenality is not evidence that
phenomenal consciosness does not exist, nor is it evidence that we can't be scientific about
it. It is crucial evidence. "Hypothesis: We can't see observing system observations with our
own observing system" is proven. Hypothesis: "SOLIPSISTIC presentation of phenomenal consciousness
is a necessitated by the underlying mechanism of phenomenal consciousness". Now get on and
work out what sorts of characteristics an observing system must have to make that the case.
Stick to ass gnomes as an expertise.

Fan-man:

Hang on. What the heck are you on about? You made a statement that "perception is reality," which Shawn responded to, and which we responded to. You said that you didn't disagree with what either of us said (at least in general).

So what's this philosophical hoohah about being a cup of water? What's it like to be a cup of water? It isn't. A cup of water is not self-aware (or aware of anything else for that matter). What's your point, and how does it relate to perception being reality? What does "everything is everything" have to do with all of the above?

Sorry, we just aren't following you at all.

Dr. H:

Setting aside the actual topic of this post for a minute to instead focus on the general topic of discussing the statement that "perception is reality," we'd be hard pressed to figure out how anything that you said relates in any way to anything.

Let me help you understand how my insight is relevant to the banter between Shawn and "Fan-man"..... moreover, the discussion regarding whether or not perception is reality.

Phenomenal consciousness is a quality of the mind generally regarded to comprise qualities such as subjectivity, self-awareness, sentience, sapience, and THE ABILITY TO PERCEIVE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ONESELF AND ONE'S ENVIRONMENT.

REALITY is the illusion we call phenomenal consciousness. When you say there is a difference between "Reality vs. Perception of
Reality" you bet I hear you, but we are inside the natural world, made of the natural world trying to describe the natural world. Reality is not innate gentlemen, we perceive it.

Mr. Fan-man was making a metaphor. A young man with an imagination AND scientific reason. I enjoyed it. The topic of this board, however, is proving psychic ability..... as my grandson would say: "Good luck with all of that."
Good day!

REALITY is the illusion we call phenomenal consciousness. When you say there is a difference between "Reality vs. Perception of Reality" you bet I hear you, but we are inside the natural world, made of the natural world trying to describe the natural world. Reality is not innate gentlemen, we perceive it.

I'm gonna have to agree with Two Percent on this one: cups of water are not self-aware, so "conscious" has nothing to do with objective reality. Before you go off on another philisophical rant try this completely objective experiment that a physicist I know suggests, whenever someome comes along and says what you do: blind-fold yourself and walk into highway traffic. See how much your perceptions change that experience... mabie you will get lucky and survive, making a physicist look like a fool :p

Solstice---- do you know what a metaphor is? Let go of the cup of water and try to think.

Going back to when "Fan-man" originally said that perception is reality, it appeared to me that he was saying that tongue planted firmly in cheek. He said:
"Perception is reality. If you perceive something as true, it is. C'mon, having this gift isn't about seeing what others can not, it's about convincing others that you do. Reality is in your head and it's different for everyone."

Perception is not reality, but the ability to perceive creates reality. Fan-man cited Newton's F=MA to illustrate that (I think). Newton found that F=MA. Reality before Newton found it, but perceived first by Newton-----not more or less real before or after the fact. Another example: The world wasn't flat when people thought it was, but as scientific perception continues to get more and more clear, reality becomes more clear.

Pyschics that use this board as a forum to showcase their "skills" have an opportunity to prove that pyschic abilities are real the same way Newton showed us that F=MA. Essentially, it's time for them to turn their perception into reality. I don't think they will be able to do it. I'm not a pyschic or cynic, I'm a scientist.

I'll be more interested in reading the "rants" of Solstice when his/her "green truck" theory is proven accurate.

do you know what a metaphor is? Let go of the cup of water and try to think.

Yes. As a matter of fact, my exact words to you were "before you go off on another philisophical rant..." Perhaps you did not catch my "metaphore" when I suggested that someone try and percieve away someone's station wagon, plowing them over?

Dr. H, I am looking forward to see what happens, as well ;)

Solstice,

F=MA is scientific, not philosophical.
AND you didn't make a metaphor. You said that playing in highway traffic blindfolded was in your words "an objective experiment that a physicist you know suggests." Objective experiments are not metaphors. Metaphors are metaphors, like comparing a person to a cup of water.

Playing in traffic is dangerous. That is my perception. A station wagon plowing over someone playing in traffic can quickly turn my perception to reality. Try again with the metaphor, but in the meantime, here's another one for you: Your psychic predictions are shit. Your psychic predictions are silly as shit-----that is a simile. Don't get confused.

As long as I'm on the topic of psychic prediction, here is mine as it relates to Natalee Holloway:

She is dead. Joran won't be charged with a crime or he would have been already. Since new evidence isn't exactly growing on trees, he will be released when Aruban law says he has to be. Natalee's family and friends will remember her and nobody else will. Does this count as a psychic prediction or did I use too much reason?

For Dr. H and Fan-man.

Beer, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems. -- Homer Simpson.

Replace beer with language and that's what we've got here. We're all using slightly different meanings an inflections to the terms we're using. That's why I love Taoism, the much prefer to tell a story that illustrates a point, than explain the point. Solstice's highway experiment is right on with that regard. Illustrates the point that reality as I'm using the term is very objective, and often involves blunt trauma.

Dr. H. -- If I'm getting your first post, you're making the very old Brain in a Jar philosophical argument. How do we know anything really exists, all we have is our perceptions. Yup, you're right. That's all we have. That's a very entertaining thought exercise, but it's useless for dealing with the world. We either reject the world we're given and do whatever we feel like without guilt of fear until we're dead. Or we accept it, and the rules that govern it. Are we in the Matrix? Who cares, nobody is offering us a way out.

With that said, all we can do is decide to accept that we're not alone. And what we all share equally whether or not we want to constitutes what I call reality. Gravity, Magnetism, Chemistry, Biology.. all that. My beliefs don't affect that reality. They might help me find a piece of it, like Newton found F=MA, but that's it.

Okay, I'm done with this. I'll say no more on perception or reality.

Last item, Fan-man, your prediction is all wrong. You've given yourself NO wiggle room to claim success no matter what happens. Try to be a little more vague and you'll have it.

Shawn---

Some people (maybe even you) think we're fighting, but I think we're finally talking! I enjoyed it. Thanks for the advice on my prediction..... This psychic stuff is all new to me.

Dr. H---

You're old enough to have a grandson, yet you knew enough about genX pop culture to call Shawn "Beavis" when he chuckled about ass gnomes? Hmmm.

Shawn---

Some people (maybe even you) think we're fighting, but I think we're finally talking! I enjoyed it. Thanks for the advice on my prediction..... This psychic stuff is all new to me.

Dr. H---

You're old enough to have a grandson, yet you knew enough about genX pop culture to call Shawn "Beavis" when he chuckled about ass gnomes? Hmmm.

When it comes to perception -vs- reality, I'm done too.

Playing in traffic is dangerous. That is my perception. A station wagon plowing over someone playing in traffic can quickly turn my perception to reality.

Someone who is a hypocrite should not be telling people what reality it or is not. Case in point, you had already said the following,

Perception is reality. If you perceive something as true, it is.

Which one of those are you trynig to tell us? They both can not possibly be true. If your B statement was true, then my "experiment" would have proven to be ineffective. If your A statement is true, then my experiment would have been sucessful.
Now, I never made a single "prediction," ever on this site. What I did say where things that may have already occured - if you you are going to make such a cheap shot, at least have the decency to read what I actually said, because I at least had to read your words, to point out how hypocritical you are.
And yes, I did say "objective". I see you can catch on to metaphores, but not sarcasm, despite your attempts to use it.

I had a dream that was really vivid - don't profess to be a psychic but I have had things come true that have happened in dreams.

Joran and Natalee were dropped off at Joran's house and went into his apartment. His apartment is rather small with the right side of the bed up against a wall and a low chest of drawers at the foot of the bed. The bathroom is a room to the left of the bed and has blue and white small tiles. (1 inch x 1 inch and has a walk-in shower with a step down. Natalee was laying on the bed and got up to be sick and went into the shower. She stood on the step and when she leaned over, she fell off of the step and fell into the shower and hit her head. Joran must have gone to the main house and came back and tried to wake her up but coudn't. He called Deepak and Deepak came and they wrapped Natalee up in something (couldn't see) and put her in the trunk. They took her out by the lighthouse and buried her 1/2 mile due east of the lighthouse near (15 feet or so) a bunch of concrete and junk (perhaps something that was under construction). It is visible when you come upon it.

Hey, we've all dreamed about things that later happened, whitewolf. Coincidence? Sure. (And a notable example of subjective validation since nobody gets excited about dream events that don't happen later.) Let's look at your dream which, in our opinion, may not be one of the ones that proves to reflect reality.

First, we note that, in your dream, Natalee's death was purely accidental. This strikes us as odd — if Natalee slipped on something, Joran would be guilty of no crime. Why not just call the police, report the accident, and go on with his life? In your dream, his first crime was hiding the body, which doesn't make a lot of sense. You could chalk it up to youthful fear, but when the heat came on so strongly and forensics teams got involved, admitting the cover up of an accident (which could likely be confirmed by forensic investigation) would be a much safer bet than admitting nothing. It just seems odd to us.

Regarding the lighthouse, we'll guess you're referring to the California lighthouse, which is the only one we are aware of on the island. That lighthouse is located on the far northwestern tip of the island. By our measurement, traveling half a mile due east from there lands you in the ocean.

Do understand our point of view, here. It's perfectly okay to share dreams like this, and some of what you've written could even turn out to be accurate (if we ever know the real details). In the same way, some of what our Magic 8 Ball told us about the case (see above) could also turn out to be accurate. Coincidence can be a funny thing.

whitewolf:

Can you share any of your prior dreams that have proven to be true? Can you please clarify something for me... In the past, did you dream of things and THEN they happend, or did you dream the details of events that had already taken place? For instance, did you have this latest dream before Natalee went missing or after? Just curious.

I had this dream the night after she went missing - I didn't really know anything about the crime except that a teenager was missnig. I guess I should have said about the lighthouse - standing in front of the lighthouse go back 1/2 mile...but in my dream East came up as well as 1/2 mile and the lighthouse. I don't know if there is another lighthouse on the island.

I have dreamed a lot of things that have come true. For instance, I dreamed about a truck that had a red, white and blue license plate on it. I woke up and wrote down the numbers. The next day, that truck was next to me at a stop light. The license plate was an Idaho license plate and was the same number. I can dream about someone that I haven't seen in a very long or talked to and they will call me the next day. I can think about something and within 3 to 5 seconds, it happens, the phone rings and I know who it is, someone pulls up in the driveway, etc. They are very minute things but are getting stronger as I get older (51). I dreamed about a certain sign attached to a tree last year on a tropical island and when I went to Costa Rica last year, that sign was about 1/2 mile from the house I had rented. Very eery but by no means a psychic. I think a lot of us have it in us. The dream about Natalee was particularly vivid because I feel that I could walk into that room and be very familiar with it.

whitewolf:

Almost sounds like deja vu.

I never knew there was a site like this. I dream about missing people all the time and frequently the flashes I see are correct.
My Natalie dream starts with fire and lava (I have no idea what any of this means by the way), then I see a boat and fire. The most important thing I see is a something that looks like a rock climbing wall or the fake walls that you see in a zoo habitat. There is a little cave, and a tiger or some wild animal, so I think if Aruba has a zoo, they should look there for clues. I certainly dont think she is still at the zoo. I feel bites being taken out of her, and I dont think its from sharks. I keep seeing the nunbers 50, 51, 151....especially 151, again, have no idea what it means.
I dont seem to be able to see much about who was around her, but I think many pepople know what happened, more than just the dude and his dad and his 2 buds. I would love it if someone who is familiar with Aruba could read this and tell me if any of these visions could be possible....the rock wall, the zoo....I also agree that she is dead, but I hope I'm wrong.

Is there a zoo a half mile away from the California lighthouse? Maybe she was taken from the lighthouse to the zoo in a green truck by two guys drinking shots of Barcardi "151." When the tiger was done taking bites out of Natalee, her remains were taken back to the fishing huts and buried in a mud hole, under the brush.
All of the aforementioned happend after Natalee was accidentally killed, yet on purpose at the same time.

Here is a "shoot from the hip" psychic revelation: Most "psychics" are phony. The remaining "psychics" are amateur criminal profilers when referring to criminal cases and a hybrid of sociologists/psychologists when doing cold readings. I can learn how to read facial expressions and body language and after a few emotionally laced questions draw a certain amount of truth from you to help with my reading. If I was claiming to be a psychic or a medium like Ms. Dubois claims to be, I would bring together elements of common sense with a mixture of criminal investigation and the behavioral sciences. For example:

I would say the body is located near a body of water (the murder took place on an island) and since most murderers don't take their time digging a "deep" grave, I'll say that Natalee is buried in a shallow grave. I'll also throw in there that the grave is in a "remote" location since most dead bodies aren't discovered under the street lights that line four lane highways.
That is what I would use to start. Next, I'll get more clever with my ascertations. Given that extensive search has already determined that a shallow grave is unlikely now, I will change gears to mention tales of conspiracy and evidence tampering. Conspiracy covers a lot of bases and stating that "others" helped eliminates the need for specifics. Here's where I will blow your mind----- I'll get very detailed about stuff that has nothing to do with whether or not I know what happend. I'll tell you what color hair the killer had. I'll tell you how tall they were, what color car they drive and what they had for dinner the night they killed Natalee. If any of this turns out to be true, I'm a genius. If not, I can say that sometimes the details aren't crystal clear. If the basic premise of what I determined to be plausible is close, I'll toot my own horn while looking for ways to show that my details are, at least in part, true too.
At least in any part, I might get a profound "no shit Sherlock" response from you guys!
Cheers!

Is there anyone here that can with certainty confirm or deny whether the Aruban restaurant Carlos n Charlies owns a small cigar boat with the name plastered across the side?

I sent this and have not heard from anyone to the equest center

I know you will probably think this is a prank. I just wanted to start out saying that I feel such an empaty for your family. I just recently lost my grandfather. During his last days I often felt several preminitions. I do not make my living as a pyschic. However, I sometimes have this feelings. I felt it would be stupid not to email you, just incase Im right. What would it hurt away.

I am a day care owner so, trust me Im no crack pot. And if the infomation I tell you helps find your daughter, It would be a relieving to me.
Here goes...l when I thought of you daughter this is what came to my mind.

I felt my self on a beach walking through the sand. I felt some what intoxicated. I remember feeling a need to push someone off of me. I recall feeling like I was "saying stop it and feeling like that person was laughing like they thought I was joking"
I felt my arms pushing someone repeatedly.

I then felt a blow to my head and I felt like I was being dragged to a trunk.

I then recalled feeling like I was in a dark place. I saw a white old what I would call a
tomb. It was shaped like one of those things you see in new orleans and in my city at the old cementaries. The shape was like a this is the olny thing I could find online like it.(( Reuleaux Triangle)). The top was more rounded and the bottom was flat.

Then I asked my self one crucial question..
Where would you hide a body, where no one who dare look. Where people are already dead.
I hope this helps you.
If it does not I dont wish to cause you future pain. I have 2 boys of my own and God knows I would die if this happened to me
thanks ericka

I am still drawn to the well on the Van Der Sloot's property. Why is Paul Van Der Sloot so adamant that the cadiver dogs cannot search the well on his property?
In recent times in the United States, there have been numerous findings of bodies buried in the backyards of the perpetrators. It seems that some like minded perpetrators feel that this is the one place that no one would think to look. The well on the Van Der Sloot's property seems to be the only place that hasn't been searched yet. It is a place that could meet the visions of many people, with the Reuleaux triangle shape, rock, climbing wall..some wells have foot holds to go up and down them...it would be a climatically cool place...a body could stay preserved for an indefinite time..without the stench as opposed to buried in dirt...the water would be cold...this would be similar to the coolness of a refrigerator...could possibly leave a body there until a later date...there are large dogs on the property...scarry looking...like tigers...a dog pen could be on the property ...maybe next to or near the well...

I know you called it quits, but THIS is the truth...

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/aug/article440.html

OK psychics! Here ya go. Pass the Psychic Challenge and I bow down!

Football tickets for a Huskers game(s).

Would be tough to come by, but I can manage Husker tickets for anyone who passes the challenge.

Sorry to confuse, but Husker tickets was my psychic "guess." Dammit.

Rockstar, I sense a "peace symbol" around you. It looks to be about 2" in diameter and is made of some type of silverish lookig metal. If you don't have one...you need to get one...it belongs to you.

Have a nice day,
Debbie

Debbie, tell me something about me. Lots to see these days. Feel free to back track to prior posts for insight into my aura.
Thanks in advance,
Fan-man.

Rockstar, I sense an "anally inserted sex toy" around you. It looks to be about 2" in diameter and is made of some type of silverish looking metal (ouch). If you don't have one...you need to get one...it belongs to you.

Talk about hedging, sheesh. I don't even think Gary Schwartz would be impressed by that kind of prediction.

Well, maybe.

"The Afterlife ASSperiments?"

Tom,

Get a life...your twisted prediction of what I said is uncalled for...Sex was not on my mind when I posted...there just seems to be a peacefulness surrounding Rockstar...I guess you wouldn't understand that.

What goes around comes around...so have a nice day...

Debbie,

Wow, you really got me with that "get a life" barb. Where do you come up with these zingers? Oh, right — you're psychic, so you must know how I secretly long for a life.

Seriously, get a grip. You lobbed a patheticly vague and all-too-common "psychic" prediction out on the table, and you expected what — applause? If you don't like my replies, then by all means, go away.

Also, it was a joke. Sex isn't a dirty topic, and jokes of a sexual nature are not taboo around here. There are plenty of socially repressed web sites where you can go if you feel that way, though.

Thanks for playing,
Tom.

What in the hell is wrong with u ppl?? Obviously u ALL have way too much time on your hands. Same ol ppl leaving pages of comments...what a joke? psychic or not...you all sound like losers!!!!! nuts. Nobody must listen to you geeks in the real world. so u come here to babble on and on and on.
damn! get a life!!!!

To me, nothing is a better sign of stupidity than someone commenting in a forum and calling people lame for commenting in that same forum. Oh, the irony.

angela — thanks for your intelligent commentary. Oh, sorry — I mean "d00d, thx 4 ur intelgient werdz, w00t." Moron.

Its one thing to make comments, TOM, but its another to dedicate hours and hours on bullshit. And its the same 4 or 5 ppl. And Tom, isnt it ironic that You are commenting about my intelligence, I thought thats what u were bitchin about, calling ppl lame for making comments, ha ha. The Irony. what a joke! so u see, i say losers and you say moron..whats the difference? and intelligence, hmm. i guess i should've researched my comment first..haha. what a jacker.

Holy shit, you're stupid, angela.

No, angela, I didn't call you stupid for "making comments," I called you stupid for making stupid comments. See the difference? Probably not.

The reason I am calling you a moron is that every time you post a comment, you offer more and proof that you are, in fact, a moron. It's that simple. The very fact that you think you "got me" with your above comment is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Once again, though, I'm sure you don't understand what I mean.

If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then please fuck off.

You know, the asinine antics of Debbie and angela are making me think that we should close down comments on this thread. We already have all the psychic predictions that we need, and there are no new developments on the case. In addition, most people who are posting on this thread don't seem to be capable of actually reading the post or any of the comments before they decide to add to the conversation.

Any opinions on this? Oh, I'm only looking for intelligent opinions here, so Debbie, angela, and those who didn't bother to read the post before they commented are not included.

Congratulations to angela for being the second person to have their comments moved to the Scribbled Above the Urinal post. That post was designed as a home for comments that aren't worth reading anywhere else. Anyone who has read angela's crap (both above and on that post) will certainly agree that she deserves her new home. For further clarification, you may read our comment policy (linked below).

To angela — your particular brand of irrelevant stupidity is not welcome here. If, someday, you have something worthwhile to say, we will welcome your contribution. Considering your inability to understand and convey basic English, and your overwhelming stupidity, we seriously doubt that such a day will ever come. For now, we will move any irrelevant and/or moronic comments from you directly to the urinal. If you continue to pester us, we will ban you outright.

Have a nice day.

Jesus L. Ron Hubbard Elijah Muhammad Flying Spaghetti Monster Christ, Tom:

That was some of the funniest shit I've ever read!

Holy shit, you're stupid, angela.

BWHAHAHA!

L337 d00d!

NATALEE'S BODY HIDDEN?
A respected psychic has said for months that Natalee's body is presently in a cement container like a cistern, near an abondoned foundation. Looking toward the front of the foundation, there are two palm trees to the right.
There are shot glasses nearby that could have been be used for drug testing.
Since no relevant person believes in psychics, this has been ignored.
Let's see if this psychic is right or full of bulla. She hasn't yet been wrong about such cases. 9-11-2005
Email me for this psychic's website.
buhlah@hotmail.com

Ooh! Ooh! I want to wager $1 million on fulla bulla!!

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/oct/article084.html

Could this hard-earned public persona be used by her media-relations people to piggyback Beth Holloway-Twitty into the political arena? She undoubtedly possesses the most-recognizable Alabamian face at this present moment in time, and the uncounted (and unaccountable-for) donated funds could buy a lot of support if it is determined that the only way to solve the mystery of the vanishing (and to further punish the Kalpoes, Van Der Sloots, Aruba and the Netherlands) is to go the gubernatorial or presidential route.

The Alabama Democratic and Republican primaries are on June 6, 2006. Roy Moore, the ousted chief justice of Alabama, has announced that he intends to challenge fellow Republican, Governor Bob Riley (he of the Aruba boycott fame) for the governorship. Could Beth Twitty become a kingmaker in the contest, offering her unqualified support and high profile in return for a future favour (and you can bet it won’t be the use of the Ten Commandments statuary as a base for a bird bath)?

Her remains will be found between October 31, 2005 and November 20, 2005. And it won't be pretty (which, of course, doesn't take a phsychic to tell you that part)

I have been broke up with my girl for two months i am deeply in love with her still and we still talk. I dont know what to do. She says she still loves me help im going crazy

Greg B: That doesn't even remotely qualify as the specific details of the case we've asked for. Still, you'll likely be proven wrong anyway. Thanks for playing.

Geoffry: Focus, dude. Stay on topic. This is not a forum for you to air your personal problems. Though, as an aside, your comments may have more relevance to the Holloway case than all the so-called psychic predictions. Go figure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many months ago I wrote greta and rita on MSNBC about the very real possibility that a white sex slave and cartel smuggling ring was responsible for whatever fate befell NATALIE HOLLOWAY,and that the three main suspects were involved in aiding and abetting this ring. the only other outside possibility for her disapearance would be their involvement with provideing a subject for a ritual killing for a witchcraft cult ceremony and then haveing her body taken out to sea.
in either case I feel joran vandersloot was responsible for being main pointman or contact man to these girls they appropriate from america(probably a lot of the pretty missing ones over the last several years have gon through the carribean islands to points unknown)and that the internet cafes where one of the kalpo brothers was employed was the method they used for transfer of monies and communication amongst the various members. the boat and the nightclub were the placesa of contact and the lighthouse area and the mariott,the places of departure meeting with high officials of the cartels or cults.
the authorities missed the boat early on in not investigateing the hard drives of the internet cafe and joran,and his other male contacts as well as who he contacted in the USA. DEPAK KALPO WAS A DRIVER and locator of departure points I feel,and the other brother responsible for dumping key information from the computors they operated. It is obvious why they want to be off ISLAND,since they would be sitting ducks and targets for the cult-cartel-smugglers if they sqweeled.
we have to be wary of far more to these cartels than meets the eye. they also provide the financeing to some of the terrorist activities off of venezuela-cuba and the african continent includeing saudi arabia and north africa and INDIA. some of that financeing I am sure has provided al-quieda and hamas hezzbahla with chanels thru guatemala to mexico on our texas arizona and san diego borders for the infiltration of not only drugs and sex,but WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION COMPONENTS AND CHEMICALS. It is far too late,however to stop the chain of events comeing in the future because our government in the USA chooses to focus strictly on the victimization as shown by rita cosby on her MSNBC show last night. victimization of the individuals at a local level and no follow up at an international level of cooperation.

sincerely,
charles buchanan 111
auburn,wa

VERITAS LUX MEA,in his service

Are you sure Joran didn't also contribute to the faking of the moon landing and the Kennedy assassination, charles?

Psychic say: People have been coming up to me saying if i could find a women named Natalee Holloway and what i'm going to tell you is not a prediction, this is a vision i am getting, here we go-: Natalee Holloway is dead & she is in water. I feel that a male was responsible for her demise and he had raped her also.

Exactly, TOM! It’s always the same silly shit with psychics — vague nonsense and unverifiable assertions. We can't even fathom how people can take them seriously. Your tongue-in-cheek "vision" captures that perfectly!

In fact, most of the predictions we've received on this thread have been in the same vein as TOM's joke vision above, and as such are not worth recapping here. There are, however, a few items we want to touch on before we close out comments on this post.

The overwhelming majority of predictions posted to our site were just a bunch of vague, useless statements that didn't even meet the terms of our challenge. It's worth noting that many of them were in direct contradiction with each other, which makes it clear why, in such cases, there's always some psychic who can claim to have provided an accurate detail — it's really a group shotgun approach.

Most noteworthy is leilah, who was the only person who provided a ton of details about her predictions. We truly do salute her for being willing to put up like that. Sadly for all of us, most of her predictions remain untestable since the case has not yet been cracked (and may never be). However, we do have to point out that no one found the bones to which she alluded, including the ones that were supposed to have washed up on shore near the Marriott on August 4.

Also worthy of mention is the single fully testable prediction that we received — this one from Greg B, who said:

Her remains will be found between October 31, 2005 and November 20, 2005. And it won't be pretty (which, of course, doesn't take a phsychic to tell you that part)

Well, since it is now past November 20, 2005, we can definitively say that Greg B was wrong in his prediction, vague though it was. Frankly, we're shocked that there were any facts that were even remotely testable among all the garbage that we received. Thanks, Greg B, for being the only "psychic" who we can absolutely say is dead wrong.

And on that note, we're closing down comments on this post. If there is a major break in the Holloway case, we'll either post a new Rant about it, or we'll re-open comments to see how the predictions stack up against the facts. Until then, dream of white large homes, fishing shacks, Boca, and crematoria. Adieu.